--- Log opened Sun Aug 09 13:42:20 2015
13:42 <@rich0> Impressive - I see 152 commits so far.
13:48  * WilliamH is here just doing a couple of things around the house before the meeting
13:55 <@rich0> Interesting.  I went to make the draft migrated historical git repo read-only on github to all devs, and managed to make it read-only to myself in the process.
13:55 <@K_F> :)
13:58 <@WilliamH> meeting in two minutes
13:59 <@jlec> ulm: awake?
13:59 <@ulm> sure :)
13:59 <@jlec> :)
13:59  * mrueg proxies dilfridge today.
14:01 <@WilliamH> Agenda is here http://dpaste.com/0M4Y26M (I'll be turning it into the summary las we go, but not live.
14:01 <@WilliamH> Roll call:
14:02  * WilliamH here
14:02  * K_F is here
14:02  * jlec is here
14:02  * mrueg here
14:02  * rich0 here
14:02  * ulm here
14:02 <@WilliamH> The first topic is the state of java:
14:02 <@WilliamH> Is there anything we can do as the council for this?
14:03 <@K_F> As I understood the email, and the thread following, it was to put focus on it, which the thread itself did
14:03 <@K_F> there didn't seem to be an active motion for council, just a beware of this information
14:03 <@rich0> While we can of course ackknowledge it, I think that this falls into the general category of understaffed projects.
14:03 <@rich0> I think probably the bigger issue is recruitment in general.
14:03 <@jlec> active recruitment
14:04  * WilliamH agrees, we really can't do anything other than acknowledge it.
14:04 <@jlec> and dying projects
14:04 <@WilliamH> should we move on then?
14:04 <@rich0> Agree.  the recruiters as recruit processors are probably reasonably fine.
14:04 <@rich0> The issue is a lack of active recruitment.
14:04 <@jlec> I see similar things in science. Old devs are leaving and no new blood follows.
14:04 <@ulm> I see active recruitment partly as a responsibility of the projects
14:04 <@K_F> well, active recruitment is one thing, I think you can expand that to generic PR
14:04 <@rich0> I think we should perhaps just say that if there are any willing to step up to try to do more recruiting/PR/etc they have our full support.
14:04 <@rich0> K_F:  agree
14:04 <@K_F> people need to see value in the Gentoo ecosystem
14:05 <@rich0> I actually am working with somebody new to get them plugged into pr@.
14:05 <@rich0> I think Gentoo just needs more non-dev staff overall.
14:05 <@K_F> rich0: yeah, and more activity in blog etc
14:05 <@K_F> GMN sadly is understaffed again
14:06 <@jlec> Something else which the council could suggest is a general procedure when projects are falling apart.
14:06 <@rich0> Perhaps we should put out an ad on -user, -dev-announce calling for anybody who wants those roles to step up.
14:07 <@jlec> When should active removal of unmaintained packages should start, etc.
14:07 <@rich0> well, we do have a page to post for staffing needs in general.
14:07 <@rich0> The real issue is that we only have so many to go around.
14:07 <@rich0> And I don't think a lot of gentoo devs are into Java.
14:07  * WilliamH agrees with rich0; we already have a page for staffing needs
14:08 <@K_F> We should be more active in conferences etc, bring up interest in general
14:08 <@K_F> certainly next FOSDEM we should have a booth
14:08 <@rich0> That was a suggestion of the new pr guy.
14:08 <@rich0> He wants to actively get people at conferences.
14:08 <@jlec> And again, I don't think recruiters are the project. Active recruitment from the teams and great mentoring. That is what we need.
14:08 <@rich0> I told him to just go for it and I'd proxy him where needed.
14:09 <@K_F> jlec: agreed, it happens on a grass root level, not as a dedicated project
14:09 <@jlec> K_F, agreed. dilfridge is pushing for that since some time already
14:09 <@K_F> jlec: I know, and tend to agree
14:09 <@K_F> also, why is it we have to go to funtoo to find stuff like gentoo ecosystem
14:09 <@K_F> http://www.funtoo.org/Gentoo_Ecosystem
14:10 <@K_F> that is a great chart, would be nice poster
14:10 <@rich0> Well, I think a project already exists to some extent for this sort of thing (PR, Events, etc)
14:10 <@rich0> The project is just coordination/facilitation.
14:10 <@WilliamH> rich0: that's teh pr project isn't it?
14:10 <@rich0> Grassroots is getting people to wear a Gentoo shirt and hang a flyer at their local LUG or whatever.
14:11 <@rich0> Events is a PR sub-project.
14:11 <@WilliamH> rich0: oh ok.
14:11 <@rich0> The project could facilitate getting banners where they need to be.  (Maybe keep one in the EU and one in the US at all times, etc).
14:12 <@rich0> But, it all takes interested staffers to drive.  I think that is what we should call for.
14:12 <@rich0> But, we can't make it happen on our own (unless we want to join the project of course).
14:12 <@rich0> So, I'd suggest just having a council call to arms or something like that, but it is mostly a figurehead thing.
14:13 <@rich0> I'm sure the Foundation would be happy to throw a bit of money at it if somebody steps up to do the work.
14:13 <@WilliamH> Who wants to compose something like that?
14:14 <@K_F> rich0: seems to have a good grasp on it, I could also help out. Would this be a generic email to the ML in that case?
14:14 <@K_F> as you say, I think part of event focus is knowing what resources are available, e.g. having banners located in both US and Europe
14:14 <@rich0> I think so.  I don't think we need to wordsmith it in the meeting.  I don't mind volunteering to send a draft to council@
14:15 <@rich0> exactly - the project should just be facilitation.  Anybody in the community should be ambassadors.
14:15 <@WilliamH> Ok, I'll leave that to you rich0 and K_F  :-)
14:15 <@WilliamH> Should we move on?
14:15 < mrueg> hmm if the only issue is missing attention at the community, why do we have that many contributors to project that do not take the final step to become a dev?
14:16 <@blueness> i'm here!
14:16 <@jlec> mrueg: have we? So what is the criticism? Do you have more insides in the "why"?
14:16 <@K_F> mrueg: I don't see that as being a project itself, might be plenty of reasons for it, I know it took me a while to become a dev
14:16 <@K_F> s/project/problem/
14:17 < mrueg> jlec: well I know at least three of them, contributing to different projects.
14:17 <@jlec> SO what is the problem?
14:18 < mrueg> most of them will tell you "quizzes take too much time" or "no motivation for quizzes"
14:18 <@K_F> and that is fine, as long as they contribute
14:18 <@ulm> mrueg: that's a lame excuse
14:18 <@blueness> mrueg:  people who want to contribute and don't have time for the quizes can be proxied
14:19 <@ulm> quizzes are a no-brainer once the candidate is ready
14:19 < mrueg> blueness: that works for active projects
14:19 <@blueness> we need people who understand the gentoo well
14:19 <@K_F> the way I see it we already have quite a low bar to becoming a developer, if people don't want to do that fine, would work better if we receive patches etc
14:19 <@rich0> I think the key is to get people involved FIRST and make them staff/devs later.
14:19 <@K_F> giving too many complete access is a security issue
14:19 <@rich0> That was the approach I took with our new pr member.
14:19 <@blueness> rich0:  yes and we have techniques for doing that
14:19 <@rich0> Otherwise when they have lots of passion you hit them with a load of bureaucracy.
14:20 <@rich0> Yup, I think most mentors get this.
14:20 <@rich0> And you don't really need to be dev/staff to do something like an events team.
14:20 <@rich0> It is just an email alias and a wiki page most likely.
14:20 <@rich0> They certainly deserve to be staff and should be made staff, but they can hit the ground running.
14:21 <@jlec> mrueg: from all devs who I recruited which obvious have finished their quizzes, quite a number already quit again or are heavily inactive.
14:22 <@jlec> So the quizes aren't neither the solution nor the problem.
14:22 < mrueg> I just wanted to mention that issues that might keep contributors away exist also on other levels
14:22 <@K_F> jlec: retaining the interests from existing developers I think is a much more important issue
14:22 <@K_F> jlec: you can have skills going out that would take 10 new comming in to replace, due to the overall knowledge
14:23 <@jlec> yes.
14:23 <@K_F> I really get upset when I see some of the personal attacks happening, of course in a highly technical society some direct communication is expected, but I can see that influencing activity level of existing as well as new devs
14:24 <@blueness> the recruitment issue is an ongoing problem, here might be other ways for java to deal with their issues like dropping support for some things, cutting back, i don't know if that will work for them
14:24 <@WilliamH> Direct technical communication is a good thing, but when it digresses into personal attacks it is not.
14:25 <@blueness> any java folks here?
14:25 <@jlec> !herd java
14:25 < willikins> jlec: (java) betelgeuse, caster, chewi, ercpe, fordfrog, sera, serkan
14:26 <@ulm> K_F: IMHO there are much less personal attacks nowadays than in former times
14:26 <@jlec> ulm: same as active devs ;)
14:26 <@ulm> like 7 or 8 years ago
14:27 <@jlec> So what is our conclusion?
14:28 <@rich0> Well, I'm going to send a call to arms for recruitment in general to council@ and then to the lists on our behalf.
14:28 <@blueness> jlec:  not sure really, the recruitment issue has been going on for a long time, we can push again
14:28 <@rich0> For Java I suggest we just acknowledge the issue.  I think it is a symptom of staffing issues in general.
14:29 <@rich0> If the new PR group (Assuming it forms) wants to help individual teams with their own recruiting that is of course fine too.
14:29 <@jlec> blueness: On top of my list is streamlining the quizzes. Sadly I didn't manage it until now.
14:29 <@blueness> jlec:  they do need work for sure
14:30 <@rich0> Sure, but I don't think that is the biggest issue.  When I wanted to be a dev I WANTED to be a dev.  Some silly quizzes weren't going to stop me.
14:30 <@blueness> actually who is maintaining the quizzes?
14:30 <@K_F> rich0: exactly
14:30 <@blueness> do recruiters maintain them?
14:30 <@rich0> I think generating interest in Gentoo in general will help.
14:30 < mrueg> !expn pr
14:30 <@jlec> blueness: we are.
14:30 < willikins> mrueg: pr = dberkholz,rich0,quantumsummers,dabbott,hwoarang,dilfridge,k_f,pva,a3li,jdhore,kensington,jrtk(at)kow.io,
14:31 <@jlec> blueness: recruiters. I am the current lead
14:31 <@blueness> jlec:  good to know, and good to have a recruiter on the council
14:31 < mrueg> rich0: maybe as a first step pr could actively promote the git migration on various channels?
14:32 < mrueg> and in doing this ask for new developers
14:32 <@jlec> We need some PR system on top of git
14:32 <@rich0> Makes sense.  I'll see if there is anybody interested in writing something up on the alias.
14:32 <@jlec> that could attract people
14:32 <@K_F> mrueg: I'm not sure if others care as much about that as some existing devs
14:33 <@K_F> of course it doesn't hurt either, I'm more focused on the security aspects we're adding to it with signed commits /pushes and the portage validation down the road
14:34 <@K_F> which we in theory could've done with another VCS as well, but is being combined with this
14:34 <@rich0> git is still news, and should still get announced
14:34 < mrueg> K_F: some contributors said they don't want to work with cvs
14:34 <@K_F> rich0: sure
14:34 <@rich0> It was a lot of work, and if nothing else those who were involved deserve the recognition.
14:34 <@K_F> now, _that_ I agree on
14:34 <@rich0> For that matter we could also send a short notice of recognition ourselves.
14:35 <@ulm> probably one of the largest repos around, too
14:35 <@rich0> Our historical repo probably has more commits than almost any git migration to date.
14:35 <@rich0> I had some chats with ESR and ours was significantly larger than most he dealt with.
14:35 <@rich0> That's just the nature of what we use it for.
14:35 <@ulm> rich0: and reposurgeon couldn't be used
14:36 <@jlec> I suggest the council calls for active recruitment and offers help to the teams.
14:36 <@rich0> Well, I don't know that it couldn't be used, but by the time it came out we largely had the kinks worked out with ferringb's scripts.
14:36 <@ulm> rich0: it went out of memory in its very first stages :/
14:36 <@rich0> Ah.
14:37 <@ulm> but I guess we're getting off-topic
14:37 <@WilliamH> jlec: what kind of help could we offer though? it isn't our function to recruit...
14:38 <@WilliamH> I like rich0's idea here, all we can really do I think is just a call to arms...
14:38 <@WilliamH> So should we move on to the next topic?
14:39 <@rich0> We can proxy if people step up to do work and I'd encourage that, but this has to be bigger than us or we'll just burn out.
14:39 <@jlec> WilliamH: coordination of teams and resources. Making devs aware of resources, like what the PR team can provide for events, etc.
14:39 <@jlec> WilliamH: yes, let's move on
14:39 <@WilliamH> Next topic: Open Bugs with Council Involvement:
14:39 <@WilliamH> Does anyone have the list? I can't search by cc w/ pybugz...
14:40 <@ulm> bug 503382 only
14:40 < willikins> https://bugs.gentoo.org/503382 "Missing summaries for 20131210, 20140114, and 20140225 council meetings"; Doc Other, Project-specific documentation; CONF; ulm:council
14:40 <@ulm> no progress, I guess
14:40 <@ulm> 20140114 is there, other two still missing
14:40 <@blueness> ulm:  still donnie?
14:40 <@ulm> yep
14:41 <@blueness> *sigh*
14:41 <@ulm> unless someone else would volunteer
14:41 <@blueness> did he put up the logs?
14:41 <@rich0> I suggest we assign them to him and take council off the list.  It seems a bit silly to go on and talk about how he didn't do it yet...
14:41 <@ulm> blueness: logs are there, yes
14:42 <@blueness> ulm:  i have a huge report due on aug 24, i can try one after that
14:42 <@WilliamH> That means, in affect, someone could write summaries based on the logs right?
14:42 <@blueness> if i forget/get too busy, bug me next time.  i'll try to get them done
14:42 <@jlec> I would think so
14:42 <@blueness> WilliamH:  its not ideal, but i can try
14:42 <@jlec> blueness+
14:43 <@blueness> it was before my time on the council
14:43 <@ulm> blueness: if you do 20140225 I could try 20131010
14:43 <@ulm> or the other way around
14:43 <@blueness> i'll do the 2014
14:43 <@blueness> i don't care
14:43 <@ulm> 20131210, that is
14:43 <@blueness> but like i said, i may have to do it next month, but i'll take it on
14:43 <@ulm> and I'll try to do this one then
14:44 <@blueness> as a tenured prof we have to do 5 year reviews.  mine is due aug 24.  i haven't started :)
14:44 <@blueness> so .... yeah
14:44 <@blueness> more work yeah!
14:44 <@K_F> I like the initiative.. haven't done any summary, but could try to get started for you blueness
14:44 <@WilliamH> ok, moving on...
14:44 <@ulm> blueness: in fact you were present in both of those meetings
14:44 <@WilliamH> next topic: open floor.
14:44 <@blueness> K_F:  nah its okay you'll have your turn
14:45 <@K_F> generally it sounds like a good idea that someone present and up to date on the agenda items writes it, but if it is due to long time non-activity...
14:45 <@blueness> ulm:  i was?  okay then :)
14:45  * blueness is old, and forgetful
14:45 <@WilliamH> ARe we ready for open floor? ;-)
14:45 <@blueness> dooo eeet!
14:46 <@WilliamH> heh
14:46  * WilliamH has a small item
14:46 <@WilliamH> Basically, the git work flow seems to suggest that we put cat/pkgname at the start of the commit msg, but some are saying that
14:47 <@WilliamH> really isn't needed because you can filter things out using git log 
14:47 <@WilliamH> You can get logs of changes that are related to certain files/directories.
14:47 <@blueness> WilliamH:  using git log is not always sufficient or convenient
14:47 <@WilliamH> Is this a topic that should be discussed more on the ml before coming here?
14:47 <@blueness> i mean using "git log <file>"
14:47 <@K_F> WilliamH: it is still useful on the gitweb, and doesn't cover package mask etc
14:48 < mrueg> WilliamH: gentoo-commits ml will profit from prepending it.
14:48 <@jlec> blueness, right. Using the gitweb is just not usefull without CAT/PN in the msg
14:48 <@WilliamH> But it doesn't make sense if you do a logical change that spans multiple directories
14:48 <@blueness> jlec: i can think of several situations, that's yet another one
14:49 <@blueness> another example is cross profile + cat/pn changes
14:49 <@rich0> I think the guide already hits most of the possibilities in its suggested conventions.
14:49 <@K_F> yeah, I think the current guide makes sense, although conventions will have to be adjusted as we go along
14:49 <@WilliamH> ok
14:49 <@K_F> including e.g. bug reference (Gentoo-bug: X)
14:49 <@jlec> WilliamH: there might be exceptions, but some general marking of commits using CAT/PKG, eclass name, rpofile: or so makes sense to me
14:49 <@K_F> but the ML is really the best place for that discussion
14:50 <@WilliamH> K_F: ok
14:50 <@rich0> eg, "if the change affects multiple directories, but is mostly related to a particular subsystem, then prepend the subsystem which best reflects the intention (e.g. you add a new license, but also modify profiles/license_groups)"
14:51 <@WilliamH> ok, moving on then... does anyone else have anything for open floor?
14:51  * WilliamH listens
14:51 <@WilliamH> hearing nothing...
14:52  * WilliamH bangs the gavel; this meeting is closed.
14:52 <@rich0> quick question
14:52 <@WilliamH> rich0: go for it.
14:52 <@rich0> who is going to take the lead on acking the git migration
14:52 <@rich0> ?
14:52 <@blueness> rich0:  what do you mean?
14:52 <@K_F> I can write up something and send to council@
14:53 <@K_F> then we can work on it form there before going to public ML
14:53 <@rich0> sounds good
14:53 <@rich0> that's all