[21:00:34] [21:00:39] !proj council [21:00:40] (council@gentoo.org) dilfridge, gyakovlev, mattst88, slyfox, ulm, whissi, williamh [21:00:43] meeting time! [21:00:54] -*- mattst88 here [21:00:57] -*- WilliamH here [21:01:01] -*- slyfox here [21:01:01] who's here [21:01:04] -*- Whissi here [21:01:04] -*- gyakovlev here [21:01:04] -*- dilfridge here [21:01:08] -*- ulm here [21:01:16] excellent, full house [21:01:20] now [21:01:40] we have different options how to handle this [21:02:03] in my personal opinion, the tendency of the discussion so far was rather clear [21:02:25] so one way is to put up a full motion immediately, maybe talk about it for a bit and then vote on it [21:02:42] dilfridge: let's cast a simple vote, and if it does not pass for some reason - explore more options? [21:02:45] the motion I am proposing is the following: [21:02:48] <-- activelow (~aggi@gateway/tor-sasl/aggi) hat das Netzwerk verlassen (Remote host closed the connection) [21:02:56] The official IRC presence of Gentoo is moved from Freenode to the Libera Chat IRC network, [21:02:56] effective immediately and to be completed within then next 3 weeks. [21:03:14] opinions / discussion? [21:03:41] Why Libera and not OFTC? For the logs... [21:04:34] and not freenode? :) [21:04:38] I wish I knew a little more. I know that the leadership of freenode was changed under questionable circumstances and a lot of communities are leaving freenode because of it. [21:05:04] Whissi: it's summarized nicely in sam's email, but tldr is: OFTC using old ircd, less tooling/services, no namespaces, no SASL. [21:05:16] here's my opinion, others may have others: a) Libera is the continuity choice, since effectively all the staff we have been working with moved there, b) it's (a newer version of) the same software, c) people have been *very* accommodating for us there [21:05:24] all of those are critical functionality for smooth and secure operation [21:05:36] regarding oftc, gyakovlev already summarized it [21:05:44] yes, dilfridge's opinion matches mine as well [21:05:50] indeed, Libera is finally using the new ircd they had been developing for freenode and were postponing the migration to [21:05:54] \o [21:05:58] gyakovlev: Software can change. And they are already working on this... [21:06:04] please tell me if I have any questions people can answer and I'll do this as neutrally as possible [21:06:16] Whissi: but they've said this is going to take some time, which is a reason to not choose it _for now_ [21:06:28] (given the software is a big issue when doing the migration, not necessarily in day-to-day as much) [21:06:29] Whissi: so we'll re-evaluate when it's done, not before. [21:06:34] exactly! [21:06:44] For now... you don't really expect that if we move today to Libera that we will move again in December when they updated software, right? [21:06:51] to add to dilfridge's points: d.) we have almost moved to libera already [21:06:54] if you make a strong case, why not? [21:06:59] we'll have decide on the basis of limited information [21:07:03] community is a big part, so software is not the only thing. [21:07:06] (if there'll be a reason to move FROM libera, such as no governance established) [21:07:07] Whissi: weren't you the one arguing that the governance model for libera isn't in place yet, therefore ... ? [21:07:07] but the decision won't be irreversible [21:07:10] e) staying on freenode becomes untenable day by day [21:07:42] dilfridge: can you substantiate (e) a bit? are gentoo's operations actually impacted presently? largest userbase is still on freenode and using it, for example [21:07:46] zlogene: This is really a bad argument from my POV. See your own comment in the bug. Just creating facts today and present them later als pro argument is... interesting. [21:08:08] no, the point is Libera were able to help us pre-migrate as much as possible, so it's a ready-choice [21:08:21] zx2c4: all freenode staff is gone. there is no freenode staff in the groupcontacts channel where administrative requests are handled. [21:08:22] it's not a reason to not choose OFTC per se, it's a reason that freenode->libera will be easy [21:08:36] Whissi: it was done largely to enormous effort of community staff, that's not creating facts, just solid facts. [21:08:43] in addition, it seems like new irc-ops have been hired with somewhat questionable background [21:09:01] Anyway, I just want to express my concerns regarding Libera Chat and I don't understand so many people give them so many props in advantage. But givent hat Libera has already so many users and I said that it's the user count which matters in the end... [21:09:48] I think I've explained why I support them, but I've made clear I would make an OFTC transition possible if we needed it [21:09:57] freenode today has no real relationship with the old one [21:10:06] https://twitter.com/ariadneconill/status/1395611920703672327 [21:10:07] so I support them for the reasons I used to like freenode? [21:10:23] excactly, it is the continuity option [21:10:34] Whissi: it did not happen magically, people simply trust libera more, admins like libera more because it is way easier to handle [21:10:39] Whissi: maybe you was not part of migration and just was relaxing and waiting what will happen? ofc that way you may miss something about it. [21:10:49] Whissi: i share your concerns about Libera chat being unproven or potentially unstable / might disappear too / less boring than oftc / etc. But also like you, the aspect of "user count" and "community" are my biggest concerns. Are you of the opinion that "user count" and such is now sufficiently large that the tipping point has been met there? Or that more time is needed to assess that? [21:10:51] the new network I mean. [21:11:19] In addition, I think we should not underestimate our own importance. [21:11:31] zx2c4: Well, the project count which moved to Libera already which have same user base like Gentoo is quiet big already. And with QT/KDE following... [21:11:32] ^ [21:11:40] Gentoo is the 800lb gorilla in the room with >>100 channels. [21:11:59] Whissi: street credit matters [21:12:00] good relationship goes both ways [21:12:04] -*- zx2c4 did not realize >>100 channels, omg [21:12:08] that is true as well [21:12:11] which is why Libera made an effort to ensure zlogene and the rest of us are very happy [21:12:16] they reached out to help [21:12:29] we've had 0 reassuring contact from fn, no efforts to make us stay [21:12:37] so it's the freenode we've always known with a new name, essentially [21:12:42] yes, this is really key [21:12:44] yes [21:12:49] Soap__: Sure but I don't know where this is coming from. See my last mail to project. Looks like nobody knows or remembers what happend to Diego in the past... but sure, give them credits already and hope for the best. [21:12:59] Whissi: i'm sorry but that's not really a good reason [21:13:08] I'd also see libera as the continuity option, and the new freenode as the change [21:13:08] Whissi: that's heresay from the past which literally nobody in Gentoo knows about [21:13:14] Whissi: did anyoe actually /know/ about that? [21:13:14] example, i was asked yesterday to be a freenode op and i know squat about it [21:13:18] Whissi: if it happened today, ofc i'd ask for a move away from freenode [21:13:24] mattst88: Yes, there are multiple people. [21:13:31] if someone attacked you, I would demand an investigation and then if that was poorly done, I'd say move [21:13:38] doc235: thanks for mentioning it ;-) [21:13:40] but this was years in the past and nobody in Gentoo today knows who the hell was involved [21:13:52] ok [21:13:55] hrrm [21:14:08] shall we vote on the proposal, or are there alternative suggestions? [21:14:10] Whissi: Citation needed. I've never heard anything about it. Did /you/ know about the claim? [21:14:17] dilfridge: ring a bell, cast a vote IMO. [21:14:30] ok [21:14:30] mattst88: AFAIK, all of us which know about it are from flameeyes' tweet. Nobody knows about it first hand. [21:14:33] -*- sam_ shuts up [21:14:35] motion: [21:14:39] The official IRC presence of Gentoo is moved from Freenode to the Libera Chat IRC network, [21:14:39] effective immediately and to be completed within then next 3 weeks. [21:14:42] please vote [21:14:44] That's not true. There are people knowing names but.... anyway, it doesn't matter today like I am not asking for canceling something after 6 years. You either act immediately or you don't and we didn't act. I just wanted to mention that to back my point I don't understand where the props in advantage are coming from. [21:14:45] -*- gyakovlev yes [21:14:50] -*- dilfridge yes [21:14:53] -*- mattst88 yes [21:15:09] -*- slyfox yes [21:15:10] -*- ulm yes [21:15:28] WilliamH: Whissi: [21:15:41] -*- Whissi yes [21:15:47] -*- WilliamH yes [21:15:53] that's unanimous [21:15:55] noice [21:15:57] thank you [21:16:00] \o/ [21:16:12] since we have no further agenda points today, I declare this meeting closed [21:16:17] thanks! [21:16:23] see you again at the next regular meeting! [21:16:24] thanks all!