[Sunday, 8 March 2026] [18:54:54 Greenwich Mean Time] !proj council [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [18:54:54 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: (council@gentoo.org) arthurzam, dilfridge, mgorny, robbat2, sam, soap, ulm [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [18:54:55 Greenwich Mean Time] meeting in 6 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [18:56:39 Greenwich Mean Time] I managed to organize the shifts time to be here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [18:57:31 Greenwich Mean Time] In case there is a missle alert here, I might be out for around 10 minutes. If no reply from me for 30 seconds, skip me [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [18:59:47 Greenwich Mean Time] arthurzam: ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:12 Greenwich Mean Time] !proj council [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:12 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: (council@gentoo.org) arthurzam, dilfridge, mgorny, robbat2, sam, soap, ulm [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:14 Greenwich Mean Time] Hello! [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:35 Greenwich Mean Time] * dilfridge|mobile here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:36 Greenwich Mean Time] * arthurzam here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:40 Greenwich Mean Time] * mgorny here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:48 Greenwich Mean Time] agenda: https://public-inbox.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/871phu4075.fsf@gentoo.org/ [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:53 Greenwich Mean Time] roll call.. already started ;) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:54 Greenwich Mean Time] * sam_ here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:56 Greenwich Mean Time] * ulm here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:00:57 Greenwich Mean Time] * soap here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:01:51 Greenwich Mean Time] robbat2: hello [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:01:55 Greenwich Mean Time] * robbat2 here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:01:59 Greenwich Mean Time] excellent, everyone's here [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:02:05 Greenwich Mean Time] 2. Removal of HOMEPAGE from the list of dependency-style variables [1] [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:02:05 Greenwich Mean Time] [1] https://public-inbox.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/ufr6gncu3@gentoo.org/ [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:02:11 Greenwich Mean Time] this is ulm's item, so I'll let him introduce it [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:02:14 Greenwich Mean Time] then I'll give my own comments [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:02:35 Greenwich Mean Time] I had brought this up in #-pms [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:03:00 Greenwich Mean Time] basically, PMS says that HOMEPAGE should support use-conditionals etc. [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:03:12 Greenwich Mean Time] but portage never supported it [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:03:43 Greenwich Mean Time] and from the discussion in #-pms I had the impression that the feature wasn't deemed useful [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:03:58 Greenwich Mean Time] oh, and it was also never used in the gentoo repo AFAICS [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:05 Greenwich Mean Time] I don't really want to spend time on implementing it in Portage, but that aside, I fear it could genuinely be confusing to implement it at this point too [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:13 Greenwich Mean Time] The syntax meant here is of the likes "https:/.... test? ( https://.... )" [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:19 Greenwich Mean Time] at the very least I think it would make more sense in a new EAPI (where we would want rationale and examples and ...) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:28 Greenwich Mean Time] i don't see any use case [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:33 Greenwich Mean Time] HOMEPAGE is user-facing variable [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:34 Greenwich Mean Time] Pointless now [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:35 Greenwich Mean Time] not machine-facing [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:37 Greenwich Mean Time] exactly [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:53 Greenwich Mean Time] My understanding is that homepage isn't intended for automatic tools, but humans => and in there I don't see usefullness of useflags depends syntax [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:04:54 Greenwich Mean Time] there is one use case I can see: patchsets via USE or something, BUT we actually discourage those because they make it hard for users to pin to that [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:05:00 Greenwich Mean Time] i think an older version of packages.g.o used to support it - but never used [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:05:01 Greenwich Mean Time] (see e.g. how we now split openssh-contrib out) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:05:20 Greenwich Mean Time] (if a new version drops the USE b/c not yet ready, the user gets upgraded w/o the patches they may rely on, so it's an antipattern these days IMHO) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:08 Greenwich Mean Time] so [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:12 Greenwich Mean Time] any discussion needed or just move to vote? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:19 Greenwich Mean Time] (i'm good to vote) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:26 Greenwich Mean Time] just throwing this out, do we actually want to drop it in a new EAPI, or just drop it retroactively? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:27 Greenwich Mean Time] do we really need a vote? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:35 Greenwich Mean Time] does anyone really think it should stay? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:41 Greenwich Mean Time] I think retro is good - it never worked [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:45 Greenwich Mean Time] Retroactively [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:48 Greenwich Mean Time] ulm: if we're already discussing it here.. [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:49 Greenwich Mean Time] never implemented => drop retroactively [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:58 Greenwich Mean Time] vote specifically because it's a PMS amendment; remove retroactive [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:06:59 Greenwich Mean Time] mgorny: also true :) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:07:00 Greenwich Mean Time] ulm: how certain are you it was never used in ::gentoo? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:07:30 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: and supported by which PM if existed? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:07:34 Greenwich Mean Time] pretty sure, I did a scan over all git (and converted cvs) history [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:07:43 Greenwich Mean Time] arthurzam: I think paludis had support (albeit it appears limited) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:07:48 Greenwich Mean Time] ok, let's go ahead [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:07:51 Greenwich Mean Time] oh, ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:03 Greenwich Mean Time] motion: drop HOMEPAGE from list of dependency-style variables retroactively, as it was never used in ::gentoo, and unsupported by the main PM [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:05 Greenwich Mean Time] no. the support in paludis was not limited. It's a depspec and handled as such [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:15 Greenwich Mean Time] * sam_ yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:16 Greenwich Mean Time] * arthurzam yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:21 Greenwich Mean Time] Yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:31 Greenwich Mean Time] * mgorny yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:34 Greenwich Mean Time] btw, I'll point out that by policy: https://projects.gentoo.org/qa/policy-guide/ebuild-format.html#pg0103 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:39 Greenwich Mean Time] we require HOMEPAGE to be "simple" in ::gentoo [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:43 Greenwich Mean Time] * soap yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:46 Greenwich Mean Time] and I see user scripts rely on this [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:47 Greenwich Mean Time] * robbat2 aye [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:08:50 Greenwich Mean Time] * ulm yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:09:00 Greenwich Mean Time] thanks, motion passes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:09:17 Greenwich Mean Time] negril: if you'd like to propose it to come back, I think given we've removed it retroactively, I would be happy to hear that, but with a proper proposal and rationale [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:09:21 Greenwich Mean Time] (and I'm not saying I'd agree with it) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:09:28 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: technically use-conditionals are static for bash [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:09:55 Greenwich Mean Time] re-introduction also makes it much easier for PMS implementations to be validated [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:02 Greenwich Mean Time] *re-intro as a distinct EAPI [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:07 Greenwich Mean Time] yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:17 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:23 Greenwich Mean Time] 3. Open bugs with Council participation [2] [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:23 Greenwich Mean Time] [2] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council#Open_bugs_with_Council_participation [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:24 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: I was just pointing out that the paludis implementation was not limited. It's fully implemented [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:26 Greenwich Mean Time] ebuilds cannot rely on any portage support in EAPIs 0 to 9 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:28 Greenwich Mean Time] Technically all is stored electrostatically [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:29 Greenwich Mean Time] negril: ack [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:39 Greenwich Mean Time] bug list: https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=CONFIRMED&bug_status=IN_PROGRESS&email2=council%40gentoo.org&emailassigned_to2=1&emailcc2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailtype2=substring&list_id=7650216&query_format=advanced [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:51 Greenwich Mean Time] bug 936211 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:52 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/936211 "[Tracker] Gentoo Foundation dissolution"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; CONF; ulm:trustees [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:10:54 Greenwich Mean Time] [Tracker] Gentoo Foundation dissolution [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:11:17 Greenwich Mean Time] we had a concerning report from a donor in -trustees the other day where subscriptions to SPI may be billed as $0 in paypal [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:11:30 Greenwich Mean Time] Will have more time in the upcoming future [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:11:32 Greenwich Mean Time] robbat2 has contacted them, we had a reply I think day before yesterday, nothing else happening yet [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:12:01 Greenwich Mean Time] That report feels to me like "Javascript disabled" or similar [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:12:13 Greenwich Mean Time] do we know if it is a problem on the SPI side or the paypal side? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:12:13 Greenwich Mean Time] it's going to be a limited set of donations; as we do have other recurring donations correctly working via SPI [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:12:29 Greenwich Mean Time] so either: it broke over time; or the client-side [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:12:41 Greenwich Mean Time] or client side, yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:13:23 Greenwich Mean Time] anything else on this? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:13:45 Greenwich Mean Time] dilfridge|mobile says he should have some more time soon, we have the donor thing but it's being looked into [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:14:04 Greenwich Mean Time] we still do have donors coming through on the foundation paypal (more than I expected, I guess) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:14:40 Greenwich Mean Time] one other related note to this [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:15:49 Greenwich Mean Time] dabbott send me the updated capital1 debit card (because capital1 changed stuff on their side) - and wants to be off any remaining account in the near future to ensure there is not any entanglement as he's also getting old [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:16:30 Greenwich Mean Time] it's close || find another US resident to change the names to [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:16:31 Greenwich Mean Time] yeah maybe it's time to organize the US foundation get-together [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:17:25 Greenwich Mean Time] yeah, even if it is not disbanding by itself but changing names around so it's easier to do that final step [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:17:41 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:17:47 Greenwich Mean Time] bug 961301 - [Tracker] Requests for metadata/AUTHORS [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:17:48 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/961301 "[Tracker] Requests for metadata/AUTHORS"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; CONF; ulm:council [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:17:49 Greenwich Mean Time] no new requets [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:17:57 Greenwich Mean Time] bug 961811 - Consider procuring Token2 PIN+ security keys for developers [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:17:58 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/961811 "Consider procuring Token2 PIN+ security keys for developers"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; CONF; tamiko:council [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:18:04 Greenwich Mean Time] the only trustee in the US is pometheanfire, right? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:18:08 Greenwich Mean Time] I don't think there's any real news on this other than nobody having complaints [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:18:18 Greenwich Mean Time] I want to add some good words [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:18:45 Greenwich Mean Time] I'm now heavily using it, since I'm in the field, and it works well, with no failures, and is quite rugged [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:19:11 Greenwich Mean Time] that's quite a strong endorsement :) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:19:13 Greenwich Mean Time] I think this will be a good product for gentoo devs [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:19:31 Greenwich Mean Time] yes promethanfire is the only remaining trustee in the US [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:19:58 Greenwich Mean Time] various bank & paypal paperwork has other old trustees that we may need in the same place [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:20:21 Greenwich Mean Time] arthurzam: excellent, thanks [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:20:51 Greenwich Mean Time] how do we want to get on with ordering some then? or not there yet? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:21:19 Greenwich Mean Time] I need to follow their biz side [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:21:22 Greenwich Mean Time] there are some open questions about shipping modalities [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:21:29 Greenwich Mean Time] wondering if it fell into some spam trap on their end [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:21:35 Greenwich Mean Time] to overseas especially [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:21:51 Greenwich Mean Time] for the US we were planning on a batch shipment to a single dev who would re-distribute [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:21:59 Greenwich Mean Time] to bypass the per-shipment clearance fees [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:22:05 Greenwich Mean Time] I think there is some lag on the server [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:22:16 Greenwich Mean Time] right, the trump tax [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:22:33 Greenwich Mean Time] even with the US supreme court ruling against the tariff/trump taxes, we won't escape the shipper's fees [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:22:38 Greenwich Mean Time] so the batch is still good [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:23:11 Greenwich Mean Time] (e.g. even if the customs & duties go back to 0% per de-minimis, the shippers can charge a clearance paperwork fee) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:24:00 Greenwich Mean Time] yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:24:48 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:24:56 Greenwich Mean Time] bug 965878 - [TRACKER] Codeberg migration [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:24:57 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/965878 "[TRACKER] Codeberg migration"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; CONF; mgorny:council [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:24:58 Greenwich Mean Time] this is going well, I think [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:25:06 Greenwich Mean Time] everything is setup and working, big thanks again to laumann [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:25:21 Greenwich Mean Time] on Thursday night or so we received a request from Codeberg to disable forks for gentoo.git because we'd already reached 27 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:25:44 Greenwich Mean Time] we discussed it and were fine with it, we asked if they could make the fork button a link to the agit help, and they've done that [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:26:12 Greenwich Mean Time] negril iirc? brought up the point that forks are occasionally useful for uploading WIP branches that aren't ready to PR yet [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:26:23 Greenwich Mean Time] "AGit fork"? that sounds weird [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:26:24 Greenwich Mean Time] not fully sure what to do about that... [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:26:33 Greenwich Mean Time] yeah, I think it's a little bit unfortunate that it is a casualty [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:26:34 Greenwich Mean Time] i wonder if "Contribute" wouldn't be a better way to put it [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:26:47 Greenwich Mean Time] mgorny: I guess the issue is screenreaders or "muscle" memory [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:26:49 Greenwich Mean Time] people looking for 'Fork' [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:27:08 Greenwich Mean Time] makes sense [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:27:09 Greenwich Mean Time] in the long term forgejo really needs to get shared object pools working [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:27:21 Greenwich Mean Time] which will make the server side burden for forking disappear [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:28:02 Greenwich Mean Time] llvm/llvm-project on github has refs/heads/users/* not sure if that's similar to "forks" [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:28:39 Greenwich Mean Time] glibc has the same in its git (without github), but you need push access to the original server then [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:28:45 Greenwich Mean Time] it's not really, because it requires giving write access to all users doing it. that only works if you only really need them for developers [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:29:08 Greenwich Mean Time] well, you can restrict these branches accordingly, but... but... but... [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:29:32 Greenwich Mean Time] you still need to mess with access control and forgejo doesn't have a "universal write" toggle [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:29:33 Greenwich Mean Time] in the end what github does internally is probably similar [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:29:50 Greenwich Mean Time] Given that you can't officially fork gentoo/gentoo on codeberg this needs at least be documented [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:30:08 Greenwich Mean Time] document away then! [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:30:21 Greenwich Mean Time] repo.or.cz actually does support refs/heads/user/$name/* [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:30:28 Greenwich Mean Time] The fork option removal was today. [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:30:30 Greenwich Mean Time] any git does [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:30:37 Greenwich Mean Time] which is kinda cute but not suitable for Gentoo [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:30:58 Greenwich Mean Time] refs/heads/user/dilfridge/mycat/newcommits [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:31:28 Greenwich Mean Time] to be clear this is totally unrelated to git and totally related to access control, and repo.or.cz is an access control website that supports access controlling user-specific refs [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:31:33 Greenwich Mean Time] You could allow it for known proxy-maintainers. But's really outside my area of intrest [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:31:51 Greenwich Mean Time] negril: we'll figure it out. [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:32:06 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:32:14 Greenwich Mean Time] bug 965900 - GLEP 63: update key recommendations [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:32:21 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/965900 "GLEP 63: update key recommendations"; Documentation, GLEP Changes; CONF; mgorny:council [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:32:32 Greenwich Mean Time] this is waiting on a draft [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:32:42 Greenwich Mean Time] actually, i'm confuse [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:32:56 Greenwich Mean Time] what do we want to change? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:33:17 Greenwich Mean Time] let me see [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:33:23 Greenwich Mean Time] > Primary key and the signing subkey are both of type RSA, 2048 bits. [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:33:27 Greenwich Mean Time] that "recommendation"? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:33:30 Greenwich Mean Time] yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:33:44 Greenwich Mean Time] i think we can't really update it until tokens are delivered [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:33:46 Greenwich Mean Time] i.e. we want people to use ECC or stronger RSA, not 2048, but.. yeah [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:34:02 Greenwich Mean Time] I'll make the bug depend on it [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:34:04 Greenwich Mean Time] unless we want "or", but then it's no different from "bare minimum" [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:34:46 Greenwich Mean Time] nitrokeys can handle 3072 acceptably, i think, but really no point in having people update now [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:06 Greenwich Mean Time] btw, the chipcard (with contacts) with firmware 3.3 is available [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:19 Greenwich Mean Time] * dilfridge might order some [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:21 Greenwich Mean Time] nice [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:22 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:32 Greenwich Mean Time] bug 962281 - Clean up consultants list [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:33 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: https://bugs.gentoo.org/962281 "Clean up consultants list"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; CONF; negril.nx+gentoo:council [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:35 Greenwich Mean Time] didn't we discuss this a bit last time? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:35:41 Greenwich Mean Time] bug wasn't updated though [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:36:43 Greenwich Mean Time] we wanted to discuss it on the list I think [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:37:48 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:38:03 Greenwich Mean Time] perhaps negril would be willing to start that discussion then [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:38:20 Greenwich Mean Time] ++ [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:38:25 Greenwich Mean Time] Which list? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:38:31 Greenwich Mean Time] gentoo-project [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:38:49 Greenwich Mean Time] Last time the conclusion was that you couldn't vote on short notice [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:38:50 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:39:16 Greenwich Mean Time] open floor [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:39:19 Greenwich Mean Time] anything to raise? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:39:25 Greenwich Mean Time] slop [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:39:41 Greenwich Mean Time] i've already started the discussion on the distributions ml [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:39:43 Greenwich Mean Time] positive stuff first, thanks to robbat2 and ramereth for the dc migration [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:40:01 Greenwich Mean Time] yes [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:40:15 Greenwich Mean Time] short comment from me about the european trade mark [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:41:18 Greenwich Mean Time] dilfridge: you were finished already? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:41:36 Greenwich Mean Time] yes there is nothing really to discuss, things work fine \o/ [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:41:39 Greenwich Mean Time] :) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:41:39 Greenwich Mean Time] mgorny: I saw your post on the distributions ML (https://lore.kernel.org/distributions/a3f792e918674e208492a077679ae6ffc88ce0c9.camel@gentoo.org/), thought one of the replies was quite surprising in how defeatist it was [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:41:50 Greenwich Mean Time] I think we probably do need some LICENSE marking for it [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:42:04 Greenwich Mean Time] as discussed in -dev yesterday, package.deprecated won't work for this as it's not user-facing, but also doesn't allow people to mask such packages [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:42:09 Greenwich Mean Time] or we need features/slop [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:42:20 Greenwich Mean Time] well, i think the first problem is "degree" [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:42:33 Greenwich Mean Time] defining levels of slop [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:42:34 Greenwich Mean Time] if we go for LICENSE marking, do we mark all packages where LLM use was detected? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:42:46 Greenwich Mean Time] no, I'd say [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:42:51 Greenwich Mean Time] that might get painful soon [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:43:08 Greenwich Mean Time] linux doesn't count even if I wish they'd use AI; I think the whole rewrites are obviously slop; the question is the middle-ground stuff like harfbuzz where the guy has gone full-AI, but he's said it should be viable for distros to stay on older HB [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:43:11 Greenwich Mean Time] LICENSE="slop slopslop slopslopslop" [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:43:12 Greenwich Mean Time] *wish they wouldn't [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:43:16 Greenwich Mean Time] it will approach 100%; if it's not their codebase, it's their CI tooling, esp github workflows [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:43:43 Greenwich Mean Time] * ztrawhcse notes that all kernel packages would need to be on the list, if it was "any LLM use whatsoever detected" [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:43:58 Greenwich Mean Time] what is gained by marked as "may contain LLM"? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:44:03 Greenwich Mean Time] * ztrawhcse is late... [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:44:30 Greenwich Mean Time] robbat2: presumably license ambiguity [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:44:46 Greenwich Mean Time] I suspect the motivation is 1) license/copyright ambiguity, 2) safety concerns [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:45:07 Greenwich Mean Time] robbat2: well the chardet issue is a big fat question given that the current maintainer used an LLM to "rewrite the project from scratch" using the previous version of chardet as training data [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:45:12 Greenwich Mean Time] that said, using LICENSE for this is at best a short-term workaround [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:45:22 Greenwich Mean Time] and did it *specifically* to relicense as permissive rather than copyleft [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:45:38 Greenwich Mean Time] I think there are some examples like chardet where it is genuinely worth making a stand against anything depending on newer, slopified chardet, given the licencing scam there [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:45:56 Greenwich Mean Time] but anything we put in there has to either be replaceable or something we're willing to patch and lobby reverse dependencies to not require (at least newer versions of) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:46:03 Greenwich Mean Time] like not even slightly hidden. "I've been wanting to relicense as MIT so it can be used in proprietary codebases for years now, and finally I asked Claude to do it" [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:46:05 Greenwich Mean Time] i.e. we can't go nuts about this [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:46:38 Greenwich Mean Time] technically the question is also, well, in the US apparently LLM output is not copyrightable, but what about elsewhere? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:47:08 Greenwich Mean Time] does code from the US then become illegal when exported? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:47:56 Greenwich Mean Time] dilfridge: of course it is copyrightable, if it contains code from someone else [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:47:58 Greenwich Mean Time] (unlikely, but needs to be said... reality moves faster than lawsuits these days) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:48:14 Greenwich Mean Time] (I have a small question for the open floor when we are done with this topic) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:48:17 Greenwich Mean Time] ulm: that seems not to be the consensus over there [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:48:41 Greenwich Mean Time] but indeed copyright may turn out to be a dull blade, unless someone would really test it in court [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:49:11 Greenwich Mean Time] I suggest we start with features/slop, be limited in what we put in there, and only put things in there that we can realistically port away from / ask reverse deps to not require >= bad-version of [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:49:17 Greenwich Mean Time] that seems like the most practical option [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:49:53 Greenwich Mean Time] and please write a bit of text on the rationale in the file [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:49:53 Greenwich Mean Time] sam_: but how do we expose it? slop subprofiles for all arches? not really practical [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:50:01 Greenwich Mean Time] remember wd40 works because we have arches that don't have rust at all [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:50:38 Greenwich Mean Time] mgorny: right, we don't have mixins, so it would require users to create a custom profile that inherits it which isn't great. the problem is, LICENSE isn't going to work well either right now, because pkgcheck doesn't warn on licence visibility problems [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:50:39 Greenwich Mean Time] it won't be much visible if it's not the default [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:50:55 Greenwich Mean Time] https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/471 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:50:58 Greenwich Mean Time] https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/652 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:51:01 Greenwich Mean Time] https://github.com/pkgcore/pkgcheck/issues/651 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:51:13 Greenwich Mean Time] so maybe we need to focus on that instead [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:51:17 Greenwich Mean Time] and then we can have a slop licence group [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:51:22 Greenwich Mean Time] or something like that [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:52:30 Greenwich Mean Time] * ulm is a bit sceptical about the technical side of such a license group [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:52:47 Greenwich Mean Time] what do you propose instead? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:52:49 Greenwich Mean Time] would require things to be properly labelled [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:52:50 Greenwich Mean Time] does this need to continue as open floor; would it be better on the lists now? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:52:54 Greenwich Mean Time] yeah, I think list is better [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:53:02 Greenwich Mean Time] it doesn't have a clear answer and thought is required [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:53:07 Greenwich Mean Time] We could inject a slop page into HOMEPAGE if the license is accept /me runs [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:53:13 Greenwich Mean Time] ulm: how about your trademark point? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:53:23 Greenwich Mean Time] just for the record, we've applied for renewal of the european gentoo trademark: https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/005275714 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:53:31 Greenwich Mean Time] after brief discussion with a lawyer, I've filed the application myself [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:06 Greenwich Mean Time] but not sure how long it will take for the EUIPO to process [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:16 Greenwich Mean Time] yeah, i was waiting with lists for input from other distros [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:25 Greenwich Mean Time] the pkgcheck fixes sound useful for this @FREE example, but I don't think it's going to be viable to keep a clean visibility thing with this; just having the user need to package.license something if something has it as a dep sounds the most that can be really done, and that's already there. Not sure what you gain from tracking the visibility - see to not remove an old version? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:25 Greenwich Mean Time] but i guess the big ones like debian won't reply [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:34 Greenwich Mean Time] leio: yes, exactly [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:37 Greenwich Mean Time] (i was particularly wondering if they have a legal take for copyright) [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:53 Greenwich Mean Time] ulm: did you see my reference about the USPTO's details on what to include in the renewal? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:53 Greenwich Mean Time] mgorny: ok, let's see how it goes on the distros ML, then we can start one on our end [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:54:55 Greenwich Mean Time] but otherwise a mechanism just like license sounds appropriate to me, just not sure it should be piggy-backed into LICENSE [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:55:02 Greenwich Mean Time] i don't know what proof you had to include in the EU trademark [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:55:22 Greenwich Mean Time] but i need to get the updated renewal for the logo finished based on that USPTO powerpoint [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:55:24 Greenwich Mean Time] Mode dilfridge sets mode: +q negril!*@* [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:55:36 Greenwich Mean Time] robbat2: none so far, at this point it's purely administrative [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:55:48 Greenwich Mean Time] and the unofficial legal info I got suggesting extending the classes was interesting [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:56:35 Greenwich Mean Time] but then we would have more classes where we must prove usage of the mark? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:56:50 Greenwich Mean Time] what classes were suggested [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:56:53 Greenwich Mean Time] ironically we proved those already with our merch [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:56:59 Greenwich Mean Time] right [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:57:03 Greenwich Mean Time] that's easy then [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:58:20 Greenwich Mean Time] ok, all done? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:58:28 Greenwich Mean Time] Does the new california anti-children law effects gentoo somehow? [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:58:46 Greenwich Mean Time] my own personal take on that is that we're not served well by getting on the bandwagon there [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:58:52 Greenwich Mean Time] much better to wait-and-see [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:59:07 Greenwich Mean Time] +1 [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:59:11 Greenwich Mean Time] ok [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:59:41 Greenwich Mean Time] wait and see [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:59:53 Greenwich Mean Time] ok, let's leave it then [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [19:59:57 Greenwich Mean Time] * sam_ bangs meeting gavel [Sunday, 8 March 2026] [20:00:02 Greenwich Mean Time] thanks everyone, we talked about a lot but I think it was useful