20:00  * NeddySeagoon calls the meeting to order
20:00 <@NeddySeagoon> whos here
20:00 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, tgall_foo tsunam wltjr   ??
20:00 <@tsunam> hmm
20:01 <@fmccor> Here.
20:01 <@tsunam> my hmm = here =)
20:01 <@NeddySeagoon> Thats 3 of us ... we have a quorum so lets start
20:02 <@NeddySeagoon> Actions From the Last Meeting - We still have section 5 to review ... I suggest we can do the before the next meeting ang get the bylaws up for adoption then
20:03 <@NeddySeagoon> Sorry, that should have been Bylaws 
20:03 <@fmccor> Please let's do.
20:03 -!- musikc [n=musikc@gentoo/developer/musikc] has joined #gentoo-trustees
20:04 <@NeddySeagoon> Can we set a meeting for section 5 next Sunday, if its not resolved in email by then ?
20:04 <@fmccor> Yes, but resolution by email sounds like a winner if we can.
20:05 <@NeddySeagoon> Its not contentious, I'll post my thoughts in the next day or so
20:05 <@NeddySeagoon> Gentoo Foundation Banking - tsunam ... your turn
20:05  * wltjr is doing yard work will be in and out
20:05 <@tsunam> Well as we've been discussing about the banking. There's a few options
20:05 -!- mpagano [n=mpagano@gentoo/developer/mpagano] has joined #gentoo-trustees
20:06 <@tsunam> one of which is related to where our outside of the NM address is
20:06 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, a public statement for the record would be good
20:06 <@tsunam> and the banks there
20:06 <@tsunam> or a bank in NM.
20:06 <@tsunam> problem is that most require you to be in person to sign paperwork
20:06 <@tsunam> Which all seems silly to me as i've opened quite a few accounts online only...
20:06 <@NeddySeagoon> personal <> company
20:07 <@tsunam> which brought up a discussion about moving the foundation for making it easier to deal with
20:07  * fmccor thought we were on track with Wells Fargo?
20:07 <@tsunam> that seems the most likely place as it has a wide range of offices
20:07 <@tsunam>  that quite a few of us could go to a local office and sign the paperwork
20:08 <@NeddySeagoon> brb
20:08 <@tsunam> I also made a minor update to the bank nfp documentation but realized the work I did on the quarterly reports was wrong so I'm having to redo them ~_~
20:08 <@fmccor> I thought wltjr had it set up to do Wells Fargo by fax --- I sent him some paperwork based on that.
20:09 <@tsunam> that'd be up to the man doing yardwork if that's the case
20:09 <@tsunam> once its established can have grant send the check to them for deposit...
20:09 <@tsunam> assuming its still good
20:10 <@fmccor> He needs to shut off his lawn mower, or whatever, and let us know. :)
20:11 <@NeddySeagoon> back
20:11 <@fmccor> I know we discussed it last Wednesday; you and Tom and William and I.
20:11 <@tsunam> so that's the current state
20:11 <@tsunam> fmccor: i was only partially here as I discussed then due to working at work :-P
20:11 <@fmccor> And Roy, too.
20:12 <@NeddySeagoon> I have a copy of my DL for wltjr to collect but its designed to be copy proof, so its not a good copy 
20:13 <@fmccor> I thought wltjr was collecting drivers licenses and consent forms, so I sent all that to him.  He should have received it yesterday (or perhaps tomorrow).
20:14 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, me too - whats a consent form, I don't recall seeing that
20:14 <@fmccor> Mine copied fine; I noticed it was a pretty good photograph, too, so I'll try to scan it for a "mug shot"
20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> My UK one does not have a photo
20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> Next
20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> Trustees and Foundation Article For the GMN - NeddySeagoon
20:15 <@fmccor> There were a couple emails from the bank to all of us; one of them had a pdf form attached.  I don't know if William needs those or not, so I just signed it a bunch of places and sent it on.
20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> I posted my section
20:15 <@NeddySeagoon> I missed that PDF but I still have the emails
20:16 <@fmccor> I planned to do mine, but got distracted by some on-going drama.
20:16 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^
20:16 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, We need the form from Tom (as secretary) and one other officer.  I don't know if he needs any others or not.
20:16 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, & tgall_foo 
20:17 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: the form or the article?
20:17 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, both I suppose :)  sorry for the mixup
20:17 <@fmccor> I'll do my part of the article tomorrow if things otherwise stay calm.
20:17 <@tsunam> lol
20:17 <@fmccor> Bah.
20:18 <@tsunam> I need to review the emails myself
20:19 <@fmccor> tgall_foo 's laptop seems not to be starting. :)
20:19 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm proposing that I'm not a signatory to cheques ... it would be too complicated
20:19 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: *nods*
20:19 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, maybe he ran over it with the lawnmower
20:19 <@fmccor> I filled out the box, but I don't need to be a signatory.
20:20 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, what about the GMN special ?
20:20 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: the sample you posted. I have no issued doing one for myself
20:20 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks
20:21 <@NeddySeagoon> The hard bit is working oout what we agree on for a going forward joint statement
20:21  * fmccor is easy there.
20:22 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm happy to put the article togther from everyones inputs
20:22 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more for actions from the last meeting ?
20:23 <@fmccor> Yes, I had an assignment.
20:23 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I must have missed that ... carry on
20:24 <@fmccor> We are looking to put together a licensing agreement for intrenational use when people like pva or our Czech correspondent wish to sell Gentoo branded T-shirts or whatever.
20:24 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, yes
20:24 <@fmccor> I spoke with Renat and he did put me in contact with his friend who did our Trademark stuff.
20:25 <@NeddySeagoon> the pro-bono group ?
20:25 <@fmccor> I'm in contact with her, but she is out of the office until about the 22nd of this month.
20:25 <@NeddySeagoon> So nothing will happen until then
20:26 <@fmccor> We'll talk then, and if that does not work out, Renat has a couple other contacts, too (one where he is currently interning, and one in Boston where he was interning earlier this summer).
20:26 <@NeddySeagoon> OK, on to   Open Bugs Assigned to Trustees
20:26 <@fmccor> Wait, there's more
20:26 <@NeddySeagoon> ok ...
20:27 <@fmccor> I think we want to transfer the Trademark to the Foundation from Gentoo-whatever-Daniel-originally-called-it (maybe just a technicality --- I need to ask)
20:27 <@fmccor> If we do, I think that's just filling out a form and sending someone $100.
20:27 <@tsunam> Gentoo Technologies Inc
20:28 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I thought that was already done
20:28 <@fmccor> At least, that's what lawyer Tanda Neustein(?) told Renat.
20:29 <@fmccor> Apparently not.  I have to make sure when she is back in her office.
20:29 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, I'll rummage my emails after the meeting
20:29 <@fmccor> A couple weeks ago or a bit less, two emails from rl03 to the trustees@
20:30 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
20:30 <@fmccor> Which were basically cover notes for emails from Tanda to him.
20:30  * fmccor is done now. :)
20:30 <@NeddySeagoon> OK, on to   Open Bugs Assigned to Trustees
20:31 <@NeddySeagoon> 177966 Clarify Foundation page on external entities  what do we have to do to kill this one ?
20:33 <@NeddySeagoon> Do we put it on hold until the Bylaws are done and we have some idea of where the Foundation is headed ?
20:33 <@tsunam> I would say yes
20:33 <@tsunam> as the new bylawys should clear up a lot 
20:34 <@NeddySeagoon> ok I'll make a note in the agenda
20:34 <@fmccor> OK.  I don't even know quite what the bug is referring to.
20:34 <@NeddySeagoon> 217511 The Gentoo Store is Out of Date   we still need to fix our own store
20:35 <@NeddySeagoon> The licencing agreement won't do that
20:35 <@fmccor> No, it just lets other people sell Gentoo-branded things.
20:36 <@NeddySeagoon> There are 3 options ... close the strore, run it ourselves or appoint some officers (a store project) to do it.  Thoughts ?
20:37  * musikc coughs and mutters something about have PR assist
20:37 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, are you volunteering ?
20:37 <@fmccor> There's a 4th option, sounds like a good one to me.
20:38 < musikc> id say the trustees would clearly still address the money aspect, but regarding the largest complaint of keeping the store up to date, that could easily and quite logically be delegated to PR as it could be viewed as a public facing entity.
20:38 < musikc> and id need to confer with dberkholz first, just an idea at present ;)
20:39 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, thats ok if members of PR became officers of the Foundation ... I don't have a problem with that
20:39 <@tsunam> wouldn't need to be a developer, could just be staff and someone recruited for running said store
20:39 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, exactly
20:40 < musikc> doesnt require tree access iirc so any staffer or ebuild dev, wouldnt matter. or are you saying someone without a gentoo email address do it?
20:40 <@NeddySeagoon> They don't even need to be Foundation members
20:40 <@fmccor> It makes sense for the Foundation to designate a PR position; doens't have to be an officer.
20:40 < musikc> id say if an external party would be interested, in line with my suggestion and thinking, bring them in to PR to perform such a task
20:41 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, that works too ... they do not need a @g.o email
20:41 < musikc> the email address makes it easy for anyone to know how to contact them, makes it a "no brainer"
20:41 <@fmccor> True.
20:41 < musikc> and there are minimal requirements to become a staffer :)
20:41 <@NeddySeagoon> We could recruit someone to staff then
20:41 <@NeddySeagoon> snap*
20:42 < musikc> 1) find a void; 2) propose how to fill it; 3) get someone to vouch for you so you can join   :)
20:42 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, yep
20:42 <@NeddySeagoon> Maybe put an Ad in situations vacant in the GMN 
20:42 < musikc> if you are interested in the notion of PR assisting with keeping the store up to date, id be happy to start dialog with donnie to assess his interest level and gain his thoughts on the matter
20:43 <@fmccor> I'd support it.
20:43 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, It seems a logical step, I support it
20:43 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, ^^ you ok with that ?
20:43 <@tsunam> yep
20:43 <@fmccor> I think whoever did it would be "dual staff" --- Gentoo PR staff and Foundation staff.
20:43 <@fmccor> But we are already doing that. :)
20:43 < musikc> ok, i'll fire off an email to find a mutally convenient time to discuss the idea more indepth with donnie. im PR staff, he is the lead so i'd want his buy in. ;)
20:43 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, You have an action from the meeting then
20:44 < musikc> np
20:44 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks
20:44 <@fmccor> musikc, Thanks.
20:44 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, Its your solo now ... Treasurers Report for FY ending 30 June 2008
20:45 <@tsunam> We spent next to no money and have over 80 people donate to Gentoo this year. WE NEED to set a budget for spending money. At least one new server a year for infra as they are still using p3's as core infra boxes
20:46 <@tsunam> as you're aware some of them are really showing age, such as the forums frontend box 
20:46 <@tsunam> Taking in money without really spending any is not a benefit to anyone
20:46 < antarus> ummm
20:46 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, A budget will cover both income and expendature
20:46 < antarus> to be fair, there is nothing wrong with a pIII for some services
20:46 < antarus> aside from power usage
20:46 < antarus> an dheat
20:47 <@tsunam> There's a few outstanding repayments as I need to get with paypal and deal with their again new requirements to send money
20:47 <@tsunam> antarus: a 6 year old box is a problem
20:47 <@tsunam> the likelyhood of failure grows as it goes on
20:48 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, do you have a balance sheet that should be published ?
20:48 <@tsunam> NeddySeagoon: as i said before the quarterly reports are being worked on currently I made a mistake on a fairly early one that needs to be corrected and reflected in the rest =/
20:49 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, bummer.  Should we defer this to the next meeting ?
20:49 <@tsunam> Aye
20:49 <@tsunam> I should hopefully have them all corrected an updated for the last 3 years by then ~_`
20:50 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, You should lead setting a budget too.  IS there time before the next meeting ?
20:50 <@NeddySeagoon> Notice lead ... not do it all
20:50 <@tsunam> weekends work best for me, or later pst evenings
20:50 <@wltjr> sry, this time is very hard for me on Sundays
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, lets discuss meeting times under AOB
20:51 <@tsunam> I basically need to talk with a few of the leads where money would be allocated (infra, pr) being two of the main to discuss it
20:51 <@wltjr> wrt to bank account I have to get in touch with Wells Fargo to inquire about Roy being outside the US
20:51 <@wltjr> they seem to want all on file to be on bank account and we likely have some issues there
20:51 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, did you get my encrypted email ?
20:52 <@fmccor> wltjr, You should have received some paperwork from me.  If not, then tomorrow, I think.
20:54 <@NeddySeagoon> moving on, whe touched on this last meeting   Trustees and Councillors - Potential Conflict of Interest
20:54 <@fmccor> Everyone I mentioned it to suggested that doing both was a bad idea.
20:55 <@NeddySeagoon> The two bodies are supposed to be separate ... serving on both breaks the separation.
20:55 <@fmccor> I don't know if there's an actual conflict or not, but I suggest we just not do it.
20:55 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, wltjr ^^
20:55 <@tsunam> I won't serve on both ever so =)
20:56 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: yes I got your email, but not sure I was able to de-crypt
20:56 <@NeddySeagoon> Nor me
20:56 <@wltjr> fmccor: nothing from you in mail yet, big city so takes an extra day sometimes
20:56 <@NeddySeagoon> Do we need something in the bylaws about it ?
20:56 <@tsunam> In this case I would believe so
20:56 <@wltjr> I see less of a conflict, more taking on to many high level positions, major voids if we lose 1
20:56 <@NeddySeagoon> We won't always be the trustees
20:57 <@fmccor> Perhaps.  It would be one line in the qualifications for trustees.
20:57 <@tsunam> As a trustee you should not serve on any other governing body of the Gentoo organization
20:57 <@wltjr> but if the trustees and counsel work together, as proper checks and balances, they should not share any people
20:57 <@tsunam> would be a short snippet
20:57 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, thats a part of the isse
20:57 <@wltjr> tsunam: agreed
20:57 <@wltjr> maybe change should, to cannot
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> Do we need a vote ?   I'll propose some words for Section 5 of the bylaws
20:58 <@wltjr> FYI we need bylaws for bank account
20:58 <@wltjr> it's part of the paperwork they want to see
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, we are proposing adoption at the nect meeting
20:58 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: if you want I think we are all in agreement, but can't hurt to vote if you wish :)
20:58 <@NeddySeagoon> ok
20:59 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: cool, shouldn't be much left to do, gives me time to find out about international aspects of the bank account
20:59 <@wltjr> would suck if because of banking reasons we have to restrict officers or board members to US only
20:59 <@NeddySeagoon> Motion to add words to the bylaws that no individual can serve on the council and as a trustee concurrently
20:59 <@fmccor> wltjr, We can give then bylaws in current state if we can kill of Section 5 by email next week.
20:59 <@wltjr> banks expect there to be an owner, which Gentoo has none, so doesn't help us there with that
20:59 <@NeddySeagoon> vote ?
20:59 <@fmccor> wltjr, We are a corporation.
20:59 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I say top level, which includes infra IMHO
21:00 <@tsunam> wltjr: basically wells fargo doesn't do international banking well
21:00 <@wltjr> fmccor: still has some form of ownership usually, share holders etc
21:00 <@wltjr> tsunam: agreed, and they have some Home Land Security issues as well
21:00 <@wltjr> they had new questions DHS made them ask, like international wire transfers
21:01 <@wltjr> which I said we might, as if there is people in Russia, Czech, etc selling Gentoo stuff, I assume they might wire the funds monthly or something vs mailing a check
21:01 <@fmccor> wltjr, I thought the form just wanted some signatures from officers.
21:01 <@wltjr> fmccor: they seem to want all principles, and not sure about our president residing outside the US
21:01 <@wltjr> luckily UK is not a big deal, but still in future years, could be another country
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I can sign the form and post it (air mail)
21:02 <@wltjr> what happens if we have no one in the US elected to the board one year ?
21:02 <@fmccor> We only fill out their form once.
21:02 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I am not even sure you can be on the account, I have to find that out
21:02 <@fmccor> I wouldn't worry about it.
21:02 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I am hoping we can create the account withuot you on it entirely, as I don't think they will let foreigners be on the account, I have to ask, not assume
21:02 <@fmccor> At least, not now.
21:02 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, ok
21:02 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: hang tight, let me call them Monday
21:03 <@wltjr> also off topic, some jerk hit my 6mnth old new car the other day, so my time frame next week, etc is going to be crap, followed shortly by a trip to CA 1st-11th for LWE and other business
21:03 <@fmccor> wltjr, They ask for addresses only for signaturies.
21:04 <@wltjr> I will try to call Wells Fargo on monday, but I also must meet with the insurance adjuster and get my baby to a body shop, and I have  full day of work :(
21:04 <@fmccor> wltjr, The other signatures are just signatures and dates.
21:04 <@wltjr> fmccor: they want all ids, etc
21:04 <@wltjr> fmccor: I need to contact them and ask them some details
21:04 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets get it sorted out on Monday
21:04 <@wltjr> plus the more we add to the bank account the more we have to remove
21:05 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I will try but I have allot going on that day, and unfortunately Gentoo will not be a major priority, life comes first :(
21:05 <@wltjr> I think we might be best sticking with just a treasurer and one to two others on the account max if we can
21:05 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Fine, I understand ... I was just repeating what you said
21:05 <@NeddySeagoon> Moving on ...  International Requests For Gentoo Merchandise
21:05 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: roger that :)
21:06 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, has already covered that
21:06 <@NeddySeagoon> 7. Gentoo Tee Shirts - Request from cz
21:06 <@fmccor> I'm fine with it.
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> We have had a request to OK tee shirts in .cz  I propose we go ahead while the paperwork is being sorted out
21:07 <@fmccor> Agreed.
21:07 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, tsunam tgall_foo ^^
21:07 <@tsunam> Its fine with me
21:07 < musikc> Are these on the Gentoo store site or a secondary site?
21:07 <@tsunam> secondary
21:08  * musikc nods
21:08 <@tsunam> with an agreement to give money back to the foundation
21:08 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I don't have a problem, they made a generous offer of $2 or something per T
21:08 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, a vendor in cz want to use our logo on tee shirts
21:08 < musikc> Just curious now, will they also provide regular statement of activity?
21:09 <@wltjr> musikc: well given the informal nature of all of Gentoo's activities, I don't see this being much different
21:09 < musikc> i just recall when wolf was a trustee he spent a lot of man hours tracking down illegal use
21:09 <@wltjr> so long as they give something back, I don't see us looking to audit or have them do additional paperwork or reports to us to show us they are being honest and straight forward
21:09 <@wltjr> musikc: we are trying to avoid that and reverse it
21:09 <@fmccor> musikc, In this case, they asked for permission, so I don't think they want to work illegally.
21:10 < musikc> id be inclined to think they do not wish to use it illegally either, doesnt hurt to ask for a statement of activity does it?
21:10 <@fmccor> Not at all.
21:10 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, nope.
21:10 < musikc> wltjr, ive no idea what you are referring to when you say "avoid that and reverse it"
21:10 <@fmccor> They'd had to provide something, because we want a kick-back.
21:10 <@wltjr> musikc: also add some bounty to any tracking down, as once we have a general policy of requiring like 2%, if we have to have counsel go after them, at least there will be some finanial benefit, vs just a cease and desist
21:11 <@wltjr> musikc: if we have no policy, no requirement of them giving back to the foundation, then we must go after them for no gain
21:11 <@wltjr> if we put forth a general policy, that let's all know what is legal and not, and what the requirements there are
21:12 < musikc> wltjr, read this carefully as i dont say it often, that makes sense and seems rather agreeable. 
21:12  * musikc giggles
21:12 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, licence anyone who asks - under the same terms but still hunt down those who don't ask
21:12  * musikc nods
21:12 <@wltjr> musikc: more of them coming to us, and having permission without asking, should hopefully lead to less enforcement, and if/when there is the need, there will be some benefit
21:12 < musikc> NeddySeagoon, all sounds logical, was just interested when i saw talk of selling merchandise since ive rather said PR should aid in that area ;)
21:12 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I thought the idea behind the policy was not having to ask in the first place
21:13 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: if they send us $ who cares if they ask or not, short of being nice to so we are aware of them
21:13 <@fmccor> wltjr, No, I don't think so.
21:13 < musikc> wltjr, how could you know the policy was enforced if you've never talked to them? otherwise it would look like any donation and not specifically tied to the actual cause.
21:13 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, I will forward you the email, if thats ok with the other trustees here
21:13 <@fmccor> We still want to know about them.
21:13 <@fmccor> Fine with me.
21:13 < musikc> fmccor, makes sense. give props where due and all
21:13 <@wltjr> musikc: easy, company selling stuff, we would know if they are giving back or not, just the same as if they never contacted us, no diff there really
21:14 <@wltjr> we could require in a policy that they contact us and get permission
21:14 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, the difference is they if they contact us they get a licence ... it could even be a web form
21:14 < musikc> wltjr, seems two different things entirely. one involves someone giving money back and the other involves never knowing that they SHOULD have
21:14 <@fmccor> wltjr, They still have to tell us they agree to the license.
21:14 <@wltjr> but if they donate funds they collected on behalf of the foundation, I would assume they would provide a note or reason when presenting those funds to the foundation
21:14 < musikc> wltjr, ok, if you require they contact that makes a lot more sense IMO
21:15 <@wltjr> musikc: a public policy is like a speed limit
21:15 < musikc> wltjr, be careful with assumptions... we all know what they often lead to
21:15 <@wltjr> if we put it out there, it's others job to be aware of and follow the policy, there are many laws that exist we have no clue of, but we must obide by them, and is our responsibility to be aware of them, not the law
21:16 <@NeddySeagoon> The details still need to be worked out ...
21:16 <@fmccor> wltjr, A license agreement is like a franchise agreement or a contract --- we have a form, and they tell us they agree to it.
21:16 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, yep
21:16 <@wltjr> allot of this is based on stuff I was reading from Apples usage stuff, of like the word Apple, their logo etc
21:16 < musikc> honestly if someone wants to sell Gentoo branded merchandise, it should not be a stretch to simply say "hey let us know how you're using our logo"
21:16 <@fmccor> musikc, correct.
21:16  * fmccor agrees
21:16 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, I think they have to, or our logo becomes public domain
21:16 < musikc> exactly
21:17 <@fmccor> Indeed, it does.  Like heroin. :)
21:17 < musikc> and id rather avoid the potential for defacing the logo which would undoubtedly happen if it were public domain
21:17 <@NeddySeagoon> We have to protect our logo and trade marks
21:17 <@wltjr> well international enforcement is a tricky arena
21:17 <@wltjr> within the US and with our allies it's one thing
21:17 <@fmccor> We can't control pirates.
21:18 < musikc> no way to prevent it from happening, but it is good to be able to have an enforcable policy
21:18 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, it depends how hard you have to push - often a polite    did you know ...  is enogh
21:18 <@wltjr> but like violation of our policies in Russia, not sure what we could do, nor how that would effect a US trademark status, as in giving other us entities legal right to use without permisison because a Russian one is abusing it
21:18 < musikc> and fmccor, i do believe NeddySeagoon is correct that if we do not enforce it on even one person it would then become public domain.
21:18 <@fmccor> But there are some steps we can take to protect our trademark --- I think I put that in my email to the lawyer.
21:18 <@wltjr> musikc: domestic or international enforcement?
21:19 <@wltjr> it's a domestic trademark right?
21:19 <@wltjr> musikc: but I know what you are talking about
21:19 <@fmccor> wltjr, I think it's international.
21:19 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, I think we have to demonstrate we take 'reasonable steps' to protect our marks
21:19 <@wltjr> a perfect example is the walking fingers
21:19 < musikc> wltjr, that sounds like a question for your lawyers :)
21:19 <@tsunam> wltjr: its registered with the german version as well
21:19 <@wltjr> which used to be trade marked BellSouth, but they did not enforce it, and now they do not own it, every phone book has the walking fingers :)
21:19 <@tsunam> so its international afaik
21:20 <@wltjr> musikc: which we have no relationship with any at this time
21:20 <@wltjr> tsunam: is that tied to the same one that Fenwick did for us?
21:20 <@tsunam> nope
21:20 <@tsunam> was done by one of the gentoo developers in germany..
21:21 < musikc> wltjr, if the trustees have no relationship with the Gentoo pro bono lawyers i was not aware. did they quit?
21:21 <@NeddySeagoon> the eV there ... I think it was ian
21:21 <@wltjr> looks like we might need to register or something with the ITA, International Trademark Associaiont
21:21 <@fmccor> musikc, I'm in contact with her, but she's out of the office until about the 22nd.
21:21 <@wltjr> musikc: we are working on establishing a relationship with them, fmccor is
21:22 <@wltjr> musikc: renat worked with them, but right as his term was coming to an end, or after it ended
21:22 < musikc> fmccor, ahhhh, what you said makes more sense than the statement that "we have no relationship"
21:22 <@wltjr> musikc: because we presently don't, we have no dialog, we aren't a customer/client of theirs at this time, etc
21:22 < musikc> people take holidays, i say good for them and i need to do the same soon!
21:22 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, it got droped in the handover and is being picked up again
21:22 <@fmccor> Did I say that?  I certainly shouldn't have if I did.
21:22 < musikc> fmccor, no, wltjr said that
21:22 <@wltjr> fmccor: I did
21:23 <@wltjr> fmccor: you are trying to establish a relationship now
21:23 <@wltjr> we have no clue if they will continue to do any pro bono work, take us on a client, etc
21:23 <@fmccor> wltjr, Yes.
21:23 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, re-estoblish
21:23 <@wltjr> we know what they did
21:23 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: well I am not clear the foundation ever was established, short of a few trustees being in contact
21:23 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Ah, ok
21:23 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: seems to be just renat, not sure if they were in contact with any other
21:23 < musikc> wltjr, do you ahve reason to believe that with the change in trustees they no longer wish to work with us?
21:24 <@wltjr> musikc: I have no clue, I would hope and assume they would move forward
21:24 <@fmccor> wltjr, And if they are not set up to the international things, Renat knows a couple who are, so we have leads and contacts.
21:24 < musikc> i asked wolf, he said it was always renat who conducted the conversations
21:24 <@wltjr> musikc: but we have needs, and they might have been just assisting with the trademark, and did their charitable stuff
21:25 <@wltjr> in anything we do it's important the relationship be more the foundation than the point of contact, that the other party knows the point of contact will change, but not the end client
21:25 <@fmccor> musikc, wltjr Renat is passing that off to me. because I can talk "lawyer" I guess. :)
21:25 < musikc> wltjr, Gentoo has had the relationship with the pro bono lawyers for years, it was not just for the trademark assistance
21:25 <@wltjr> musikc: first I am hearing of that, not sure about others
21:25 <@wltjr> musikc: ideally all this stuff would have been dealt with during changing of the guards
21:25 < musikc> i am unsure if it was always the same lawyers, but the assistance has been there for numerous years
21:26 <@NeddySeagoon> We seemed to have wandered off Gentoo Tee Shirts - Request from cz and onto  Any other business
21:26 < musikc> wltjr, just ask previous trustees. i just have the added benefit of hollaring at one in the next room. ;)
21:26 <@wltjr> musikc: I think it was different, as renat seems to be pursuing a career in law, he has connections all over the place
21:26 <@wltjr> musikc: we have, we have gotten info over period as it's been needed
21:26 <@tsunam> musikc: you still do...more or less 
21:26 < musikc> wltjr, ok. i was confused when you said it was the first you have heard of it.
21:27 <@wltjr> lessons learned for next time around
21:27  * musikc steps back so NeddySeagoon can bring his conversation back to order ;)
21:27 <@NeddySeagoon> Lets move to AoB
21:27 <@wltjr> musikc: first I have heard of a relationship with Fenwick that wasn't pertaining to the trademark, but could have been other counsel
21:27 <@wltjr> I mean we have retained an attorney in NM, but he can't help with much outside of local issues
21:27 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, you want do discuss a change to the meeting time ?
21:28 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: if possible, sundays are very hard in the summer and likely same afterward
21:28 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, when do you r propose ?
21:28  * wltjr is making an effor to not work on weekends, and to have a life :)
21:28  * musikc giggles
21:28 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: weekday would be best, but not sure that works for others
21:28 < musikc> wltjr, pay a 10 year old to cut your grass then :)
21:28 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Its ok for me
21:28 <@fmccor> Works for me if not too late.
21:28 <@wltjr> musikc: I need the excercise, and for the size of my lawn it wouldn't be cheap
21:29 <@wltjr> but yard work is hardly what I tend to do on Sundays, go to the beach is more like it :)
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, It won't be late, it needs to be about 19:00 UTC for me
21:29  * fmccor starts his work day at about 7:00AM (1100 UTC).
21:29 < musikc> wltjr, my little brother used to do it. managed to get a used riding mower and made quite the profit afterwards ;)
21:29 <@fmccor> 1900UTC is perfect for me.
21:29 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, tsunam tgall_foo ^^
21:30 <@wltjr> musikc: I have thought of hiring a law service and maid, but that's more $ each month, and have to have it coming in
21:30 <@wltjr> contrary to popular opinion I am not wealthy and do not make allot of $
21:30 <@fmccor> On the west coast, that's noon, and for tgall_foo , it's 1:00PM
21:30 <@wltjr> wrt to Gentoo I make 0, and the more I think about that, I believe Gentoo is costing me and my business $, but that's for another day
21:30 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, what day for you ?
21:30 <@tsunam> 1900 works
21:30 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: any weekday is good, I hvae regular work schedules for the most part
21:31 < musikc> wltjr, i dont think anyone believes you are wealthy, you've said repeatedly how you own your own business and work hard to keep it going. :)
21:31 <@wltjr> musikc: work my arse off, I work more and harder than if I worked for someone and make a bit less $
21:31 <@NeddySeagoon> What about a Monday ? ... but really I have no preference
21:31 <@wltjr> actually allot less, but that should change in time, and most of the time I enjoy what I do
21:31 <@fmccor> Verify the time with tgall_foo , I guess, and let him pick a day if it matters.
21:32 <@wltjr> as long as it's not like the second or first Tuesdays, as we have Java team meetings at 18:00 UTC
21:32 <@NeddySeagoon> I cannot get on IRC from work and most of you would be in bed if I did :)
21:32  * fmccor does not care what day, but has come to loathe weekend meetings.
21:32 <@wltjr> but that might be ok  as well, just 2 hours of gentoo meetings :(
21:32 <@wltjr> resulting in 0 commits :(
21:33 <@NeddySeagoon> I'm proposing Monday
21:33 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: should be fine, and ty for considering moving the day of the week
21:33 <@NeddySeagoon> DONM Moday Aug 18 at 1900 UTC
21:33 <@NeddySeagoon> Monday*
21:34 <@wltjr> it will really help in my attendance because I keep much better track of my time, appointements, meetings, etc during the week
21:34 <@NeddySeagoon> tsunam, AoB ?
21:34 <@tsunam> none
21:34 <@wltjr> oh one last thing
21:34 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, AoB ?
21:34 <@wltjr> major thing actually
21:34 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, contine
21:34 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, Nope.
21:34 <@wltjr> we need to put forth a vote at some point IMHO, in house foundation or like SPI
21:35 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, we do ... thats months off yet
21:35 <@wltjr> I think we want to stay in house, but to do so will likely require some changes, organization, structure, etc that many aren't cool with
21:35 <@NeddySeagoon> We need a stable Foundation first
21:35 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: ok, I thought we wanted to know before getting to committed with bank account, etc
21:35  * wltjr will be pissed to put hours, weeks, or more time into stuff just to see it reversed 
21:36 <@fmccor> wltjr, Perhaps.  But I certainly think we want to stay in house.
21:36 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, we want to set up as if its in house ... then decide the long term future
21:36 <@wltjr> fmccor: I do as well, but I think we should have a global vote to decided, although we technically could as elected representatives
21:36 <@fmccor> Why?
21:37 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, feel free to air your views in your GMN part of the Trustee special
21:37 <@wltjr> fmccor: because it's been clear some of the things that are necessary are very controversial
21:37 <@fmccor> wltjr, We are already set up in house --- why would we need a vote to keep doing that?
21:37 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: yeah I need to do something there
21:37 <@wltjr> fmccor: we aren't really
21:37 <@wltjr> fmccor: we don't have a bank account, no financial reporting, no budget, etc
21:37 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, those things are all coming
21:37 <@fmccor> And we are actively pursuing all of that.
21:37 <@wltjr> fmccor: we are slowing resurrecting the pieces, but again allot of work that could easily be reversed
21:38 <@fmccor> how?
21:38 <@wltjr> fmccor: is there interest in the foundation?
21:38 <@wltjr> fmccor: will people want to run in a year or so
21:38 <@wltjr> do people even want to see the foundation being active
21:38 <@fmccor> Sure.
21:38 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, thats a longer term issue.  We have to be sound and legal before we join an umbrella
21:39 <@NeddySeagoon> if we choose to go that way
21:39 <@wltjr> fmccor: I am not so sure, it seems most want the foundation to stick to it's limited roll and agenda, which IMHO doesn't make much sense at all to have a foundation vs outside management
21:39 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: BS, the entire point of joining an umbrella is for them to do the boring work and to get us legal and keep us legal
21:39 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: SPI has no requirements for our condition when we come to them
21:40 < musikc> hmmm... if i may?
21:40 <@fmccor> Please.
21:40 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc sure
21:40 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: the point is the SPI would do for us everything we are now, without us struggling to do it
21:40 <@wltjr> they would manage bank account, funds, reporting, tax filings, donation reports, etc
21:40 < musikc> it makes far more sense to have an organized house to hand over, if thats the decided upon course, than a disorganized one. if you hand over disorganization how do you know if you are getting what you want out of the agreement when you didnt know what you had to begin with?
21:41 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I don't share your confidence but maybe you have looked into it a lot more than me
21:41 <@fmccor> musikc, I agree absolutely with that.
21:41 <@wltjr> musikc: most of our organization goes away and is not required to join an umbrella
21:41 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc++
21:41 <@wltjr> for example, we don't need a bank account for SPI or SFC
21:41 <@wltjr> as they have their own acounts that funds go into
21:41 <@wltjr> so us creating and having a bank account, means squat to joining an umbrella
21:42 < musikc> wltjr, i see your line of thought and appreciate the thought put into it, however i still hold the opinion that you should know what you are handing over first.
21:42 <@fmccor> wltjr, We have to carry on as we are now anyway, no matter what we might choose in the future.
21:42 <@wltjr> any legal filings, they have to either undo, or correct/change, so having stuff is almost more work than not
21:42 <@wltjr> musikc: I spoke with the SPI let us not forget
21:42 <@fmccor> wltjr, And I don't think any of us want to hand it over in any case.
21:42 <@wltjr> they are different than the SFC to an extent, much more organized, but have little to no requirements
21:42 <@wltjr> and we are already further along than were things were at when I was talking to them
21:43 < musikc> wltjr, you and others have spoken to different groups. it doesnt change the value to knowing what you hand over. and if it requires a bit of work for them to transition it to their group then so be it, at least they know what work they would have to do instead of uncertainity.
21:43 <@wltjr> fmccor: agreed, but the foundation has little to no authority, and if it tries to exert any it quickly becomes controversial
21:43 <@wltjr> musikc: I spoke ot the SFC as well
21:43 <@fmccor> So, remove the "quickly" bit.
21:43 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I don't want to jooin an umbrella while we still have a chance to make a go of our own Foundation.  
21:44 <@wltjr> musikc: the SFC is very differet from the SPI, much newer and mostly dealing with smaller entities with way less BS
21:44 < musikc> NeddySeagoon ++
21:44 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I agree, but I am not sure we have the support
21:44 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, agreed
21:44 <@wltjr> thus a vote would show what direction will be supported by the community
21:44 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, don't worry about a little controversy ... it stirrs the sediment
21:44 <@wltjr> I have no interest in pursuing directions that are not supported, that means we will be pissing in the wind the entire time for any effort or action
21:44 < musikc> wltjr, this discussion seems premature. it appears that others in trustees wish to continue efforts.
21:45 <@fmccor> Agreed.
21:45 < musikc> i support the interest to continue and move forward and look forward to reviewing any ideas you folks share
21:45 <@wltjr> ok, so does anyone else want ot spend hours this week talking to Wells Fargo?
21:45 <@wltjr> regardless of how we feel, in a year we will potentially be replaced
21:45 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, we need this discussion sometime but it needs a dedicated meeting and airing on the -ml *after* we can stand on our own feet
21:46 <@wltjr> so anything we do can be undone, unless the community and others share the common long term direction and goals
21:46 < musikc> wltjr, your opinion. any of you can run again and if the foundation members feel your work was just and valuable you'd likely be voted in again. :)
21:46 <@wltjr> standing on our own two feet is hardly trivial
21:46 <@wltjr> I am just trying to justify my time is all
21:46 < musikc> wltjr, anything anyone does in Gentoo could be undone. it's not just for trustees. :)
21:46 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, of course not, its running a busines
21:46 <@wltjr> musikc: yes, but legal issues are much harder
21:47 <@wltjr> musikc: look at what must be done to open an bank account
21:47 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, not harded, just more protracted
21:47 <@wltjr> it's HOURS of work, and is not glorious like commiting to tree or etc
21:47 <@wltjr> and a business with no structure will fail, as has the foundation time and time again
21:47 < musikc> wltjr, so good work doesnt happen easily. you of all people are well aware of that from your experience with your own small business. :)
21:47 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I do hours of work and never commit to the tree :(
21:47 <@wltjr> put another way, how many years has the foundation existed, and how many has it operated smoothly and as it shoudl for?
21:48 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: technical stuff is different I enjoy that
21:48 <@wltjr> I do not enjoy calling about bank accounts, signing stuff that needs to be mailed, etc
21:48 < musikc> wltjr, so because others failed or did what could be viewed as sub par work no one should try to rectify that? you wanted this role to make a difference, do not now be afraid to act for fear of it being undone.
21:48 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I think its only operated properly since March this year ... or at least visibly so
21:49 <@wltjr> musikc: no, my point is action without support is pointless
21:49 <@fmccor> It started off well.
21:49 <@wltjr> musikc: if we correct, but the community doesn't care, it will happen again
21:49 <@wltjr> it's not us that sees our work through, it's the community
21:49 < musikc> wltjr, or if the community supports it now, what is to say that the opinion wont change in a year or two?
21:49 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I think you have been doing a good job of making others aware that the Foundation is alive and kicking, even if its not made you friends
21:50 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: it's literally almost driven me from Gentoo
21:50 < musikc> things change, do not be afraid to act due to fear of change. you guys hold a valuable job and one that is needed.
21:50 <@wltjr> I am so beat up wrt to Foundation stuff, I have no clue where I stand on any of it
21:50 <@fmccor> wltjr, Everything I see suggests that the community appreciates what we are doing.
21:50 <@wltjr> IMHO is all starting to seem like totally wasted time on stuff people just don't care about
21:50 < musikc> wltjr, you seem disenchanted
21:50 <@wltjr> fmccor: really?
21:50 <@wltjr> so who supported my sponsor survey?
21:50 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, have a few weeks off ... The foundation is hard work
21:50 <@wltjr> 1 person, and 1 new sponsor
21:51 <@wltjr> who within gentoo is doing anything to try to help or support the foundation?
21:51 < musikc> wltjr, not everyone will agree with every suggestion. doesnt mean you should just put away the drawing board.
21:51 <@wltjr> musikc: I have run out of suggestions
21:51 <@wltjr> I have come up with stuff on both sides, in the middle, etc no one is happy with anything
21:51 < musikc> wltjr, perhaps try NeddySeagoon's suggestion and take a break
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, sponsors are going to be a really contraversial can of worms ... no major sponsors donate to the Foundation
21:52 <@wltjr> musikc: which includes you at one point, as well as others
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> ... yest
21:52 <@NeddySeagoon> yet
21:52 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: no they are easy, our new sponsor was great
21:52 < musikc> wltjr, oh you have made suggestions that i am completely opposed to. doesnt mean i think you should stop thinking or suggesting.
21:52 <@wltjr> the hard part is existing sponsors, and going through infra
21:52 <@wltjr> as it seems even updating the sponsors page is a infra matter, which is odd
21:52 <@wltjr> so infra deals with sponsors, another duty of the foudation, that no one wants to see the foundation handle
21:53 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, when they can see a tax advantage, it will get easier to move them
21:53 <@wltjr> musikc: well when ever idea one has get's shot down, it doesn't motivate one to keep on, instead just shut up and let others propose ideas
21:53 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Our sponsors do *not* (yet) donate to the Foundation
21:53 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: tax advantages heh, a 5yr process, I am not confident the house will stay in order for 1yr much less 5, tax incentives are a pipe dream IMHO
21:54 <@wltjr> like if we are serious about 501c3 and umbrella is the only for sure way IMHO
21:54 < musikc> wltjr, that's one way to look at it, giving up. or you could instead find another view point to work and give it another go.
21:54 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, dreams are how it all starts
21:55 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, an umbrella may be lowest risk ... that does not make it right
21:55 <@wltjr> musikc: another point of view is to let ideas play out before shooting them down on the drawing board
21:55 <@wltjr> which for example a while back stuff I believe astinus or antarus I always mix the two, was shooting down on -nfp, months later retracted it on irc, which is like wtf?
21:55 < musikc> wltjr, sorry i dont agree that ideas should be implemented before reviewed, discussed, and possibly re-written.
21:56 < musikc> wltjr, people change. perhaps someone gave it more thought and was swayed to your line of thought. doesnt seem like a bad thing imo. :)
21:56 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, thats the real world, people change their minds
21:56 <@wltjr> musikc: I can say wrt to you and Chris, you all don't know me at all, and some of my ideas you had other assumptions behind, so shot down things you didn't fully understand, because assuming one knows who they are coming from
21:56 <@wltjr> musikc: the more you rip ideas apart, the more time you spend spinning your wheels
21:56 < musikc> wltjr, i feel you are making this personal and hope that is not the case especially given you are talking to me about someone who is not even present.
21:57 <@wltjr> more time is lost to indecision than wrong decision
21:57 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, they key their is 'didn't fully understand'   -  thats not a reason for giving up
21:57 <@wltjr> everyone is so fearful of being wrong, nothing happens
21:57 <@wltjr> put another way, as I have said before
21:57 <@wltjr> a new dev comes on board, we give them full access/ability to destroy the tree
21:57 < musikc> wltjr, who is fearful of being wrong? it seems that you are expressing your own views as you are the one who is expressing apathy towards suggestions for fear of being shot down.
21:57 <@wltjr> new trustee comes on board, who has been around the community for some time, no trust or faith
21:58 <@fmccor> wltjr, A negative reaction or a disagreement is just that.  It doesn't necessarily shoot something down (if it did, my life would be much simpler), it just forces dialog and perhaps compromise.
21:58 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, its not the same ... new job, new tree ... 
21:58 <@wltjr> I am just beat up, and if others are more optomistic then more power to them
21:58 < musikc> wltjr, please ask fmccor. he can attest that we do not always agree yet through mutual respect we manage every day and every week to move forward. :)
21:58 <@wltjr> but I seem to always end up in the trenches shoveling the crap
21:59 <@fmccor> wltjr, musikc is right, you know.
21:59 <@wltjr> like I am no longer invovled with by laws process, which I never wanted to be part of, but felt it needed to be reviewed and discussed in depth
21:59 <@wltjr> next thing I am spear heading that, and ideas are all being attested to me personally
21:59 <@wltjr> just looking to help with bank account, and now I am doing that as well
21:59 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, The reaction I have seen to your proposals is one of 'shock horror' because they are out of he blue, not because of resoned well thought out objections
22:00 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: exactly, so they should shut up and object when there is reason to, not theory
22:00 <@fmccor> wltjr, Let's just say that devrel's private conversations would not earn a CoC seal of approval (unless you are thinking Call of Cthulhu :) )
22:00 <@wltjr> fmccor: I have no clue what your referencing or meaning there
22:00  * musikc giggles
22:00 < antarus> wltjr: you don't make a good sell ;)
22:00 <@tsunam> it sounds like the meeting has digressed...
22:00 <@wltjr> I am really sick of stuff being personally tied to me, I have my own business and my own clients who all are business owners, I have lots of other places for my personal ideas
22:01 < musikc> wltjr, means me and fmccor have knock out drag out fights regularly, but we lick our wounds and move on and find common ground again. :)
22:01 < antarus> also you seem to be in a hurry and then when things are not done at your own pace you take up more stuff
22:01 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, the fault, if there is one, is on both sides.   Change can come in any direction you like, but slowly ...   you have to prepare the way
22:01 < antarus> no one is forcing you to tak eon more tasks ;)
22:01 < antarus> don't overload yourself
22:01 < musikc> hehe, NeddySeagoon, isnt it ghandi who said you must be the change you wish to see?
22:01 <@wltjr> musikc: this stuff has caused me to become ineffective as a trustee, hated as a person, hurt some relationships, kills any technical commit time to gentoo, robs time from my business, and is all making me pretty bitter
22:01 <@fmccor> wltjr, Call if Cthulhu is a pretty well known horror story by H.P. Lovecraft and a role playing game. :)
22:01 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, something like that
22:02 <@tsunam> fmccor: a very good short story
22:02 <@tsunam> fmccor: but I'd not call it horror
22:02 < musikc> wltjr, i can see the bitterness coming through. im sorry you are dealing with that. perhaps you should take the time as neddy suggests and step back, you can later review it after you are well rested.
22:02 <@wltjr> antarus: nope but stuff doesn't get done either way, I really didn't want to be a trustee, but there was  void that needed to be filled, no one else stepped up so I did
22:02 <@fmccor> tsunam, Maybe not.  It is a good story, though.
22:02 <@wltjr> musikc: were you there almost a year ago when I was discussiong foundation stuff?
22:03 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Stuff will still get done, just more slowly
22:03 <@wltjr> at LWE?
22:03 < musikc> wltjr, yes. i sat quietly and let you share your thoughts regardless of my opinions.
22:03 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: the longer it takes for things to happen, the less time we have to see the work through
22:03 < musikc> wltjr, it is good to air out your thoughts with peers. doesnt mean everyone will later accept them as first suggested though. lots of ideas require revisions.
22:03 <@wltjr> musikc: well all ideas were shot down, my point is almost 1yr solid now carrying about the foundation
22:04 <@wltjr> hasn't improved my life at all, in or outside of Gentoo, I am not to convinced the foundation is any better off
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Nah, we just change our term of office.  Thats only partly in jest
22:04 <@fmccor> wltjr, I work on the belief that if I run again, I'll be re-elect, and in any event I'm an officer of the Foundation until someone else is appointed. :)
22:04 <@wltjr> we aren't getting anywhere, and pretty sure meeting is long over, so I will just let others get on with it
22:04 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I'm sure the Foundation is better off for your contribution
22:05 <@fmccor> Oh, for sure it is.
22:05 < musikc> wltjr, you do seem very bitter and disenchanted with the entire Gentoo experience you currently have. take a break so you can view tihngs with fresh eyes.
22:05  * musikc nods
22:05 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I am not, and I am less happy wrt to Gentoo overall now
22:05 <@wltjr> musikc: no I love the technical experiences
22:05 <@wltjr> I love the java team, and people I work with there, whom I have not been workign with for most of the year
22:05 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Take a break from the Foundation stuff
22:05 < musikc> you've raised a cause that was dying, that alone was good. now you are actively trying to restore and make improvements. not sure how that's bad. just be patient with others when they dont instantly side with your suggestions.
22:06 <@NeddySeagoon> fmccor, can you pick up the banking stuff ?
22:06 <@fmccor> NeddySeagoon, No; I'm not qualified for that.  
22:06 <@tsunam> hand it back to me
22:06 <@tsunam> I'll figure a way to make time
22:06 <@wltjr> tsunam: nothing stopping you from making the calls
22:06 <@wltjr> we all have the info
22:07 <@fmccor> I think tgall_foo was experienced, and at this point, if I read it right, it's mostly a matter of collecting paperwork at this point.
22:07 <@tsunam> other then I get to work at 7:30ish and go go go until end of the day :-P
22:07 <@wltjr> I literally put in my agenda I have little to no time
22:07 <@wltjr> that any time I spent I wanted to see results sooner than later
22:07  * musikc pokes tsunam 
22:07 <@wltjr> that hasn't been the case, and it's resulting in more time from me, and no results
22:07 < musikc> :-P
22:07 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Please take a break
22:07 <@fmccor> I sent my forms to William; he can send them on.
22:07 < musikc> wltjr, it is unrealistic to say that everything must happen right away
22:07 <@wltjr> and while things like the by laws are almost complete, IMHO it's still pretty half ass
22:08 <@tsunam> so we take more time on them
22:08 <@wltjr> like wrt to Foundation members, wtf are they? what does being a member mean?
22:08 <@tsunam> rather have them right then half assed true?
22:08 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, the bylaws will always be a moving target
22:08 <@fmccor> I think the bylaws are good enough.  We can amend them as needed, and it's much more important to have them in place than to have them perfect.
22:08 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: sure for minor changes, but I don't see the members section being constantly re-written
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr Members ... maybe nothing yet but we can change that
22:09 <@tsunam> <--is in need of food
22:09 < musikc> <---- is in need of a movie
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> Any more AoB ?
22:09  * fmccor is in need of food, too, but for a different meal, probably.
22:09 <@wltjr> no I am done, other things to do
22:09 <@tsunam> fmccor: yar
22:09 <@NeddySeagoon> Open floor ...
22:10 <@NeddySeagoon> Anybody anything else ?
22:10  * NeddySeagoon declares the meeting closed
22:10 < antarus> poll dancing
22:10 <@fmccor> wltjr, Can you send the forms I sent you to Joshua, or should I send him copies directly?
22:10 <@wltjr> fmccor: I can send, but you all are getting ahead of yourself
22:10 <@NeddySeagoon> antarus, its pole :)
22:10 <@wltjr> we need to answers to questions to find out if we can even proceed with Wells Fargo
22:11 < antarus> NeddySeagoon: election year and all that ;)
22:11  * musikc giggles at antarus for his poll dance
22:11 < antarus> (and I cannot spell)
22:11 <@wltjr> like if they require the president to be on file, but they have to be a US citizen we are screwed
22:11 <@tsunam> wltjr: just let me know where you got and I'll follow up
22:11 < musikc> wltjr, you are jumping the gun. tsunam has agreed to assist so you can take time off. :)
22:11 <@wltjr> tsunam: I can call them at least and get answers, which I assume will take ~30 minutes, since they will have to ask a supervisor and are not common/normal questions
22:11 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr Nope, we can switch offices
22:12 <@wltjr> tsunam: do you want to call them? do you know the questions I am talking about
22:12 <@wltjr> musikc: to a point I have to see some of it through since my name, phone # etc is tied to the account
22:12 <@tsunam> wltjr: I just need an email that gives the current situation and general what needs to be done
22:12 <@tsunam> wltjr: I'll follow from there
22:12 <@wltjr> info we need to have on file with them but haven't discussed
22:12 < musikc> wltjr, that would be a problem if only one person can even discuss the account
22:12 <@wltjr> not to mention I dislike the bank account address being Mr. Chews
22:12 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, there is no account yet ... yo are however, the contact 
22:13 <@wltjr> musikc: yes, we have lots of problems wrt to bank account
22:13 <@tsunam> we'll work on it
22:13 < musikc> no account = anyone can call and ask questions
22:13 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: there is an account application underway
22:13 <@tsunam> wltjr: I'll look for the email from you and work on it as soon as I can
22:13 <@tsunam> for now I'm out
22:13 < musikc> so the trustees are opening an account in which wltjr is the only one who can ask questions or make changes? doesnt sound right, i must be misunderstanding something.
22:13 <@wltjr> till we provide paperwork they won't know who else can deal with the account, aside from me since I made the call and started the process
22:13 <@fmccor> Banks can't be surprised to learn that a corporation might have officers outside the US.
22:14 < musikc> good point fmccor
22:14 <@wltjr> musikc: because banks are not setup for a hybrid organization like ours
22:14 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, apparently not.  From their website,  that won't start until they check over the paperwork
22:14 <@wltjr> it's very difficult
22:14 <@wltjr> musikc: like when they were inquiring about owners, etc
22:14 <@wltjr> we have no share holders, no one owns gentoo, and that is not like most any other business
22:14 <@fmccor> wltjr, We're a not-for-profit corporation.  What's unusual about that?  
22:14 < musikc> wltjr, i think someone just needs to take some time. shouldnt be that difficult or unusual, as fmccor points out.
22:15 <@wltjr> fmccor: that no one lives in the state of the NPO, the NPO has no address of it's own
22:15 <@wltjr> fmccor: there are tons of problems
22:15 <@fmccor> We have members.
22:15 <@wltjr> the NPO doesn't have a phone #
22:15 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, The Foundation owns whatever there is to own
22:15 <@wltjr> fmccor: members don't mean squat wrt to a bank acount, that doesn't show ownership
22:15 <@wltjr> while the foundation is a legal entity, banks tie that to individuals as a entity can't managed a bank account
22:15 <@fmccor> We have a board and we have officers.
22:16 <@wltjr> individuals that work for or authorized by the entity due, thus the account get's tied to people as well as the entity
22:16 <@wltjr> fmccor: yes which must all be on file for the account
22:16 <@wltjr> fmccor: which also will all change at some point, and no clue how the bank will deal or react to taht
22:16 <@fmccor> At least for signature authority.
22:16 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, hand over to tsunam and take a month or so off from the Foundation please
22:16 <@fmccor> wltjr, Who cares?  That shouldn't surprise them either.
22:17 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I can, but that's only going to set tsunam back in other efforts
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr We all know that.
22:17 <@wltjr> plus till I do something with Wells Fargo, pretty sure I am the only one who can proceed, unless we start a new application or something
22:17 <@NeddySeagoon> Thisng will slow down but not stop
22:18 < musikc> wltjr, you said there is no account, only paperwork for an account that has yet to be processed. people back out before accounts are started every day. this isnt rocket science. take your break and trust in your fellow trustees. :)
22:18 <@wltjr> well how many months has it been since we were legal again, which was the road block to a bank account
22:18 <@wltjr> I understand tsunam is short on time, that's why I got involved, so stepping back just to see the matter put off for another month or two isn't encouragement
22:18 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Its a hobby, not life and death
22:18 <@wltjr> musikc: opening an account is a process, which is underway
22:18 <@wltjr> musikc: the process is not complete, but there is stuff on file, and I assume a bank account # tied to that info
22:19 <@wltjr> musikc: I provided them with a bunch of info to start the process, we just have to follow through with paperwork
22:19 < musikc> wltjr, what would happen if you quit tomorrow or heaven forbid you were injured or killed? your peers will be able to go on in your absence so enjoy some time off. :)
22:19 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, WF site said that after they had our stuff, someone would contact us about opening the account
22:19 <@NeddySeagoon> Its only first contact so far
22:19 <@wltjr> musikc: if that was the case, I wouldn't even be on the board :)
22:20 <@fmccor> Wells Fargo wants our business, we want them, so they're not looking for reasons to turn us down or throw up roadblocks.
22:20 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: yes to complete the process that is underway
22:20 <@wltjr> fmccor: no but they can't bend their rules either
22:20 <@fmccor> They already think they have the business --- why else would they ask us to pick out a check design?
22:20 < musikc> wltjr,  you wouldnt be on the board if the trustees couldnt survive without you? trust me, life goes on and no one is tied by a life line to Gentoo.
22:20 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Take your break, we will cover for you ... or do you think we can't ?
22:20 <@wltjr> fmccor: so if their rules say all officers must be on file, and all have to be US citizens then?
22:21 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, then I resign as president - not as trustee
22:21 <@wltjr> musikc: if your saying the foundation would exist without me, possibly, but if it weren't for me making noise, there never would have been an election, much less reinstatement, etc
22:21 < musikc> wltjr, perhaps you would then consider another bank? i know when i traveled to Asia i was happy to see that Citibank had a presence
22:21 <@wltjr> musikc: been there, Wells Fargo is one of our last hopes
22:21 <@fmccor> I think they asked for two officers --- the secretary and one other.  I provided my signature there if you need it, and Tom must provide his.
22:22 < musikc> wltjr, again i state, gentoo will move on without any one of us. do not fool yourself into thinking it would wither and die. that's ridiculous and a touch bit arrogant.
22:22 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, *without* travel to sign paperwork
22:22 <@wltjr> musikc: tried Citi and Chase already, we either have to physically go to NM to sign paperwork or look to establish official offices ina nother state
22:22 <@wltjr> musikc: the foundation did die, again if it wasn't for me making that known, nothing would have happen
22:22 <@wltjr> musikc: the last time the foundation operated as it should was 05, one of it's first years in existence
22:22  * antarus notes that you have no idea what would have happened had you said nothing
22:22 < musikc> wltjr, my reference with Citibank was to point out that there are banks that work in a variety of countries. ive no doubt that the trustees will find the right fit with the right bank.
22:23 <@fmccor> musikc, Tom tracked Wells Fargo down based on the fact that they could work without a trip to NM.  And if something in person is needed, tsunam is within walking distance of a branch.
22:23 <@wltjr> antarus: I saw what happened from August 07 to January 08
22:24 < musikc> wltjr, your opinion of everyone elses failures is so noted but is a bit harsh to say no one did anything since 2005 as i simply know people who did work between that time.
22:24 <@fmccor> musikc, Problem with Citibank is they do not have offices in NM; Wells Fargo covers NM, and everyplace else west of the Missippi, and for some reason Indiana.
22:24 <@wltjr> antarus: given the lack of interest in the foundation even to this day, I am not convinced anyone else would have stepped up or said anything, no one cared
22:24 <@wltjr> musikc: stuff was done, but doing stuff and doing all that is required to run the foundation properly are not the same
22:24 < musikc> fmccor, tsunam is not within walking distance of NM. he works with me.
22:24 <@wltjr> musikc: we got the foundation with no bank account, a revoked charter, and last financial report was from 05
22:25 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, Drop it and enjoy your break ... if you come back refreshed, fine, if you consider your position and resign as a trustee, thats fine too.  but first, take a break
22:25 <@wltjr> NeddySeagoon: I kinda have been, missed several meetings already
22:25 < musikc> wltjr, you are becoming argumentative and as such i no longer wish to participate in this downward spiral of a conversation. i hope you enjoy your time off, please do not forget to set your .devaway
22:25 <@fmccor> musikc, No, he is within walking distance of a Wells Fargo branch, though, and that's enough if they want to see you (at least, that's what tgall indicated)
22:26 <@wltjr> musikc: um, I have packages to bump, and things to commit, being away as a trustee has nothing to do with being away as a developer
22:26 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, I don't think we are going anywhere with this just now ... chill out away from the Foundation for a month
22:26 <@wltjr> musikc: most are interaction hasn't been pleasant for a while, today was abnormal so far
22:26 < musikc> fmccor, ahhhhh... misunderstood. good that a simple office visit to any office is all that is required. :)
22:26 <@NeddySeagoon> musikc, but tsunam will need time off his work :)
22:26 <@wltjr> musikc: if we have to sign stuff in person, but that doesn't seem to be a requirement at this time
22:27 <@wltjr> so far with Wells Fargo we can do it all remotely, no one needs to enter a branch anywhere
22:27 <@fmccor> musikc, The problem we were running in to seems to have been that there are few if any banks doing business both on the east coast and New Mexico.
22:27 < musikc> <wltjr> musikc: this stuff has caused me to become ineffective as a trustee, hated as a person, hurt some relationships, kills any technical commit time to gentoo, robs time from my business, and is all making me pretty bitter
22:27 <@wltjr> plus few banks want ot open a remote account
22:27 < musikc> wltjr, i thought that message indicated you desired time off period.
22:28 <@wltjr> musikc: no, just stating how I feel in my present position
22:28 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, take time off and get to grips with your feelings
22:28 <@wltjr> musikc: I am a very straight forward person, if I didn't say it, don't assume it, never read anything more into what I am saying then the words themselves
22:28 < musikc> *sigh*
22:28 <@wltjr> what I desire is results, time off does not achive that
22:29 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, and words are such a poor form of communication
22:29 <@wltjr> in what a month we will be technically half way into our year, and what we have accomplished so far is pretty minor IMHO
22:29 < musikc> this is getting pointless. fmccor and NeddySeagoon thank you for the enlightening conversation. ill get back to you regarding the PR task. wltjr i really do hope you do something to relieve yourself of such misery and bitterness.
22:29 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, you can run too fast and stumble ... if you are demotivated, take a break
22:29 <@fmccor> wltjr, I think we're done for today.  As for the rest, do what seems best, I guess.
22:29 <@wltjr> I said I was done twice already
22:30 <@fmccor> wltjr, I'll always help any way I can.
22:31 <@fmccor> musikc, Thanks again.
22:31 <@NeddySeagoon> thanks musikc 
22:31 <@wltjr> fmccor: thanks
22:31 <@fmccor> wltjr, You are welcome.  Just ask.
22:32 <@wltjr> fmccor: it's not a help issue it's a time issue
22:32 <@wltjr> time to achieve results
22:33 <@fmccor> Understood.
22:33 <@NeddySeagoon> wltjr, the two are interchangable while you can still divide the problem 
22:33 <@wltjr> time is moot when results are achieved, more time spent, less results, less motivation and interest
22:38 <@fmccor> We'll get it done.  Just perhaps not as quickly as we might like.