Dec 20 14:00:27 <robbat2>	NeddySeagoon: ping
Dec 20 14:00:56 <robbat2>	antarus: ping
Dec 20 14:01:09 <robbat2>	and dabbott, swift and myself are already here
Dec 20 14:01:23 <SwifT>	indeed
Dec 20 14:03:47 *	antarus arrives
Dec 20 14:04:04 <antarus>	thanks for the text ;)
Dec 20 14:05:18 <NeddySeagoon>	I've blown it .(
Dec 20 14:05:42 <robbat2>	yay, an almost complete board!
Dec 20 14:06:22 <NeddySeagoon>	We were doing the xmas decs and I've been sent for a chinese carry out
Dec 20 14:06:44 <robbat2>	NeddySeagoon: ah, so you have to depart
Dec 20 14:07:00 <robbat2>	i can take care of most business, but I need your vote on something
Dec 20 14:07:05 <robbat2>	before you go
Dec 20 14:07:17 <NeddySeagoon>	I remembered when the car clock said 17:00
Dec 20 14:07:38 <robbat2>	via email, Neddy and I discussed offering dabbott the board seat from matthew's withdrawl
Dec 20 14:08:08 <NeddySeagoon>	OK. I'M on my phone in Tescos car park
Dec 20 14:08:40 <robbat2>	dabbott: would you accept? if so, we'll hold a quick vote on it
Dec 20 14:08:41 <NeddySeagoon>	Correct  
Dec 20 14:08:53 <dabbott>	Sure :)
Dec 20 14:09:27 <robbat2>	motion: dabbott replaces quantumsummers for the remainder of his board term
Dec 20 14:09:32 <NeddySeagoon>	I count towards the quorum even if I depart early
Dec 20 14:09:38 <robbat2>	vote
Dec 20 14:09:41 <robbat2>	aye
Dec 20 14:09:42 <NeddySeagoon>	Seconded
Dec 20 14:09:47 <NeddySeagoon>	Aye
Dec 20 14:09:50 <SwifT>	aye
Dec 20 14:10:05 <robbat2>	antarus?
Dec 20 14:10:28 <antarus>	aye
Dec 20 14:10:31 <antarus>	(was just reading bylaws)
Dec 20 14:10:36 <robbat2>	motion passes
Dec 20 14:10:38 <dabbott>	thanks
Dec 20 14:10:50 <NeddySeagoon>	WB dabbott
Dec 20 14:11:02 <robbat2>	ok, so on the agenda
Dec 20 14:11:11 <robbat2>	i will do logging
Dec 20 14:11:21 <robbat2>	and posting motions etc
Dec 20 14:11:31 <dabbott>	thanks robbat2 
Dec 20 14:11:35 <robbat2>	old business:
Dec 20 14:11:42 <robbat2>	1. New Treasurer and account details
Dec 20 14:11:46 <NeddySeagoon>	I need to cross a busy road.  I'll be back while dinner cooks
Dec 20 14:12:10 <robbat2>	quantumsummers sent me the online details for accounts
Dec 20 14:12:25 <robbat2>	however, one set of credentials does not work (even for him); i'm pending getting his SSN to recover access
Dec 20 14:12:50 <robbat2>	i have no news about getting the physical chequebook and other hardcopy documents
Dec 20 14:13:27 <robbat2>	the account without credentials is the one with the largest set of missing data (since 2013)
Dec 20 14:13:46 <robbat2>	he told me what that account's balance was, as of nov 30th
Dec 20 14:14:31 <robbat2>	assuming that is correct, we are only looking at what happened to $300-$500 
Dec 20 14:15:04 <robbat2>	the git repo contains generated reports and all of the data
Dec 20 14:15:18 <NeddySeagoon>	Dinner is cooking
Dec 20 14:15:41 <NeddySeagoon>	I'm still here
Dec 20 14:15:51 <robbat2>	we have $6k+ available in paypal, and another ~$96k in our bank accounts
Dec 20 14:16:20 <robbat2>	i can't touch anything in the bank accounts yet, but we're good
Dec 20 14:16:34 <robbat2>	that concludes all details of the treasurer handover to date
Dec 20 14:16:46 <NeddySeagoon>	Thanks Robin
Dec 20 14:16:50 <robbat2>	after I have the missing account access and statements, i can work on our tax filing
Dec 20 14:16:58 <robbat2>	thank you to antarus for getting me missing gsoc invoices
Dec 20 14:17:29 <NeddySeagoon>	Do we have CPA contact details?
Dec 20 14:17:33 <robbat2>	we do not
Dec 20 14:17:47 <robbat2>	if I do not get them, i'm just going to find us a new CPA for tax filing
Dec 20 14:18:08 <dabbott>	I don't think he ever had anyone, never say a bill
Dec 20 14:18:17 <dabbott>	saw
Dec 20 14:18:22 <NeddySeagoon>	Sure.  I was more thinking of our 503
Dec 20 14:18:22 <robbat2>	no, he explicited said he did have a CPA before
Dec 20 14:18:37 <robbat2>	it was the same person he used for his company
Dec 20 14:18:56 <robbat2>	and we have paid for tax prep
Dec 20 14:18:57 <NeddySeagoon>	Matt was using his CPA
Dec 20 14:19:35 <NeddySeagoon>	Its worth an ask
Dec 20 14:19:57 <robbat2>	i did ask for the details of his CPA previously
Dec 20 14:20:06 <robbat2>	that question, along with others, was never answered
Dec 20 14:20:22 <NeddySeagoon>	Thats all you can do
Dec 20 14:20:58 <antarus>	I daresay it is not all we can do
Dec 20 14:21:22 <NeddySeagoon>	We can write again
Dec 20 14:21:25 <robbat2>	antarus: what else, besides asking again and finding a new CPA, do you propose?
Dec 20 14:22:30 <NeddySeagoon>	I need to go I'll read backlog
Dec 20 14:22:35 <NeddySeagoon>	Gone
Dec 20 14:22:52 <robbat2>	antarus: if you don't have anything specific for it now, i'm going to move us on to the activity tracker
Dec 20 14:23:01 <antarus>	yeah move on
Dec 20 14:23:24 <robbat2>	due on the tracker:
Dec 20 14:23:48 <robbat2>	- IRS return, we filed an for an automatic extension good until Feburary, we could file another
Dec 20 14:24:03 <robbat2>	i will make that decision early next month
Dec 20 14:24:27 <robbat2>	- NM annual report: it was filed I believe, however we need to re-file to drop matthew
Dec 20 14:25:02 <robbat2>	- (overdue) treasurer report; i hope to put out an interrim report over xmas
Dec 20 14:25:30 <dabbott>	I did the NM filing, I can update the information
Dec 20 14:25:44 <robbat2>	dabbott, thanks, let's chat after the meeting
Dec 20 14:25:51 <dabbott>	ok
Dec 20 14:25:52 <robbat2>	(re addresses)
Dec 20 14:26:03 <robbat2>	that closes general old business
Dec 20 14:26:08 <robbat2>	antarus, do you have any old business?
Dec 20 14:27:14 <robbat2>	my old business was already covered in the New Treasurer section
Dec 20 14:27:22 <robbat2>	other than the SFC donation, which I'll return to
Dec 20 14:27:47 <robbat2>	antarus, you have 1 minute, then i'll move on
Dec 20 14:28:21 <antarus>	no
Dec 20 14:28:34 <robbat2>	ok, swift
Dec 20 14:28:49 <SwifT>	well, see mail: are we ok with updating our trademark or is it more sensible to wait further alignment with gentoo e.v. ?
Dec 20 14:29:33 <robbat2>	i like NeddySeagoon's proposal that we are open about the split
Dec 20 14:29:56 <robbat2>	and say that we're waiting for the e.V.
Dec 20 14:30:20 <robbat2>	at the same time, we should state our intention, and set a reasonable deadline
Dec 20 14:30:52 <robbat2>	swift did say he was already waiting more than a year
Dec 20 14:31:09 <SwifT>	yes this has been on our agenda for quite some time
Dec 20 14:31:22 <robbat2>	so, how about march as the deadline?
Dec 20 14:31:33 <robbat2>	unless that would cause anybody problems with tax-year-end timing
Dec 20 14:32:05 <SwifT>	i'll suggest it to them, thats another quarter to get things settled
Dec 20 14:32:40 <robbat2>	thanks
Dec 20 14:32:55 <robbat2>	any other old business from you? (we'll handle trademarks in that section)
Dec 20 14:33:00 <SwifT>	no
Dec 20 14:33:27 <robbat2>	ok, NeddySeagoon is away, so we'll skip his old business for now
Dec 20 14:33:41 <robbat2>	trustee bugs
Dec 20 14:33:56 <robbat2>	dabbott: the search link broke again :-9
Dec 20 14:35:11 <dabbott>	ok
Dec 20 14:35:34 <robbat2>	bug #543768: join the Network Time Foundation
Dec 20 14:35:37 <willikins>	robbat2: https://bugs.gentoo.org/543768 "Joining the NTF foundation"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; CONF; dabbott:trustees
Dec 20 14:35:53 <robbat2>	they wanted us to sign an NDA
Dec 20 14:36:08 <robbat2>	everybody seemed to be against the NDA
Dec 20 14:36:21 <dabbott>	yes
Dec 20 14:36:26 <SwifT>	indeed
Dec 20 14:36:35 <antarus>	pretty much I see little or no value in being in the NTF
Dec 20 14:36:59 <robbat2>	they approached us, for improved publicity for themselves
Dec 20 14:37:03 <robbat2>	debian is a member
Dec 20 14:37:30 <robbat2>	along with suse, netbsd, freebsd
Dec 20 14:38:09 <robbat2>	i think we propose that we are willing to join, but that any security details they intended to hide behind NDAs
Dec 20 14:38:12 <robbat2>	we are not interested in
Dec 20 14:38:28 <robbat2>	if they refuse that, we wrap up discussion
Dec 20 14:39:14 <robbat2>	the security team already said they are not interested in early notice of NTP vulns from NWTime (they get notice elsewhere)
Dec 20 14:40:24 <robbat2>	if they really want us just for publicity, that should suffice
Dec 20 14:40:28 <SwifT>	i agree with that approach
Dec 20 14:41:11 <robbat2>	ok, myself or dabbott can talk to them
Dec 20 14:41:52 <robbat2>	bug 488142, 547348: gsoc reimbursements; this is pending as part of my treasurer data-hunt
Dec 20 14:42:07 <robbat2>	bug 568896: SFC
Dec 20 14:42:09 <willikins>	https://bugs.gentoo.org/568896 "Funding Request: Matching Funds Donation to Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC)"; Gentoo Foundation, Proposals; CONF; robbat2:trustees
Dec 20 14:42:33 <robbat2>	as I note in the bug, it was already approved in email by NeddySeagoon and swift
Dec 20 14:42:48 <robbat2>	i was looking for one more vote
Dec 20 14:43:12 <dabbott>	fine by me I will update the bug
Dec 20 14:43:12 <antarus>	I can put my stamp on it if I can find my bugzilla password
Dec 20 14:43:24 <robbat2>	thank you
Dec 20 14:43:42 <robbat2>	that's all specific bugs we need to discuss
Dec 20 14:43:49 <robbat2>	i have one meta-note about bugs
Dec 20 14:44:01 <robbat2>	i'd like us to start using the whiteboard to note who a bug is pending on
Dec 20 14:44:22 <robbat2>	i'll detail it more in email
Dec 20 14:44:37 <robbat2>	i started using 'finance-audit' as a whiteboard tag in my financial data hunt
Dec 20 14:45:51 <robbat2>	new business:
Dec 20 14:46:01 <robbat2>	meetings calander
Dec 20 14:46:17 <robbat2>	we discussed it two meetings ago, be sure to check if you have any new conflicts
Dec 20 14:46:24 <robbat2>	- trademarks
Dec 20 14:46:43 <robbat2>	Genfleetoo was already approved
Dec 20 14:47:22 <robbat2>	e.V. ownership we already discussed
Dec 20 14:47:43 <robbat2>	"gentoo foundation" UK company, neddy said was going to write the company
Dec 20 14:48:56 <robbat2>	"NeuroGentoo"
Dec 20 14:49:27 <robbat2>	the email thread on that latest request devolved to the e.V. discussion
Dec 20 14:49:35 <robbat2>	their last proposed logo was: http://chymera.eu/img/ng.png
Dec 20 14:51:23 <antarus>	are we looking for a decision there or..?
Dec 20 14:51:54 <robbat2>	it devolved into a debate if we could grant it or not
Dec 20 14:52:10 <SwifT>	personally I do not like a non-gentoo project with "Gentoo" in its name
Dec 20 14:52:40 <robbat2>	SwifT: and what about the logo?
Dec 20 14:52:51 <robbat2>	if he calls it something like "Neuro Overlay for Gentoo"
Dec 20 14:53:09 <SwifT>	the logo I don't mind
Dec 20 14:53:46 <antarus>	robbat2:  I think that would be service identification then, IMHO
Dec 20 14:53:47 <SwifT>	"Neuro Overlay for Gentoo" is better as I see that more as nominative use
Dec 20 14:54:13 <robbat2>	dabbott: do we have a listing of listing trademark usage approvals?
Dec 20 14:54:34 <dabbott>	no
Dec 20 14:55:57 <SwifT>	hmm I might want to relook into my disapproval for the name in the project
Dec 20 14:56:04 <antarus>	haha
Dec 20 14:56:08 <antarus>	I was just about to agree with you
Dec 20 14:56:21 <SwifT>	the new trademark seems to allow it under "products and services serving the community"
Dec 20 14:57:32 <SwifT>	so question is if an overlay is software (if yes, then not allowed) or informative (if yes, then allowed)
Dec 20 14:58:06 <antarus>	Also curious if neuro4gentoo would be allowed
Dec 20 14:58:54 <SwifT>	i'll stay with my original opinion.. i do not agree with "gentoo" being in the name, unless it clearly is nominative use (such as "for Gentoo" or "4Gentoo")
Dec 20 14:59:47 <antarus>	I am with swift here, as much as I would like to grant neurogentoo, it feels like its not defending the mark
Dec 20 15:00:02 <antarus>	and we start down the slope of other people wanting similar uses
Dec 20 15:00:17 <robbat2>	i'm looking at other overlay names
Dec 20 15:00:22 <robbat2>	because I feel if we do deny him
Dec 20 15:00:30 <robbat2>	there are a lot of others we should also complain at
Dec 20 15:00:35 <antarus>	there is precedent being set the other way, sure
Dec 20 15:01:15 <antarus>	I think we should work on a policy that encompasses all of those ?
Dec 20 15:01:21 <dabbott>	http://gentoostudio.org/
Dec 20 15:02:59 <robbat2>	yes, I can see that, as well as some other prior art examples of mixing gentoo into the name
Dec 20 15:03:03 <robbat2>	as community sites
Dec 20 15:03:31 <SwifT>	gentoostudio seems to be more informative, not? 
Dec 20 15:04:01 <SwifT>	my main objection is against sfotware projects using the name
Dec 20 15:04:19 <dabbott>	yes, more of a guide and overlay
Dec 20 15:04:20 <robbat2>	is an overlay a software project?
Dec 20 15:04:57 <dabbott>	custom ebuilds?
Dec 20 15:04:57 <SwifT>	that's the main question here - but we own the trademark document so we can clarify how to deal with overlays...
Dec 20 15:05:26 <SwifT>	i mean if we agree with overlays using the name we can adapt the document to clarif that
Dec 20 15:05:42 <robbat2>	ok, we clarify it to say that ebuilds, and overlays are explicitly permitted
Dec 20 15:05:56 <robbat2>	other software with gentoo as part of the name is disallowed
Dec 20 15:06:11 <antarus>	I am fine with that
Dec 20 15:06:18 <dabbott>	sounds good
Dec 20 15:06:21 <robbat2>	(ebuilds logically being that they are meant for gentoo even without being in an overlay)
Dec 20 15:06:50 <robbat2>	overlays should probably still include our required statements
Dec 20 15:06:59 <SwifT>	ok, i'll update the doc and mail it around 
Dec 20 15:07:13 <robbat2>	saying they're unofficial and that gentoo is trademarked to gento foundation
Dec 20 15:07:36 <robbat2>	ok, pending that mail, we're tentaively approving NeuroGentoo
Dec 20 15:07:52 <robbat2>	so deferred for the moment
Dec 20 15:08:21 <robbat2>	funding / sponsorship / advertising: we dealt with SFC already, no other items
Dec 20 15:08:29 <robbat2>	Membership Applications:
Dec 20 15:08:41 <robbat2>	the following developers have applied for foundation membership:
Dec 20 15:08:41 <robbat2>	Jauhien Piatlicki (jauhien)
Dec 20 15:08:45 <robbat2>	Daniel Campbell (zlg)
Dec 20 15:08:48 <robbat2>	Yury German (blueknight)
Dec 20 15:08:52 <dabbott>	yes
Dec 20 15:08:53 <SwifT>	aye for all three
Dec 20 15:08:54 <antarus>	aye
Dec 20 15:08:57 <robbat2>	aye
Dec 20 15:08:59 <antarus>	(For all)
Dec 20 15:09:04 <robbat2>	(for all yes)
Dec 20 15:09:24 <dabbott>	I will update the member list and sent them an email
Dec 20 15:09:27 <robbat2>	motion: approve jauhien, zlg, blueknight passes
Dec 20 15:09:32 <NeddySeagoon>	gentoostudio is a gentoo stage4 with lots of pro audio stuff 
Dec 20 15:09:56 <robbat2>	there are other stage4
Dec 20 15:10:02 <robbat2>	stage4's out there as well
Dec 20 15:10:25 <robbat2>	neurogentoo might end up the same way, bootable media that you can use
Dec 20 15:10:54 <NeddySeagoon>	but not the distored G logo
Dec 20 15:11:41 <robbat2>	NeddySeagoon: NeuroGentoo posted a new logo, with a "brain activiation map" and the text "Neuro" on top of the G logo
Dec 20 15:12:11 <NeddySeagoon>	I've not seen that
Dec 20 15:12:25 <robbat2>	since you're on a phone, GentooStudio's logo has a bass clef on top of the G logo
Dec 20 15:12:34 <NeddySeagoon>	I'm home 
Dec 20 15:12:34 <robbat2>	NeddySeagoon: http://chymera.eu/img/ng.png
Dec 20 15:13:22 <NeddySeagoon>	Hmm its still a distortion of our G logo.  Thats circular.
Dec 20 15:13:41 <robbat2>	true
Dec 20 15:13:49 <robbat2>	tell him to fix the shape back?
Dec 20 15:14:06 <NeddySeagoon>	That would work for me.
Dec 20 15:14:28 <NeddySeagoon>	I don't like similar.  Its too subjective
Dec 20 15:15:02 <NeddySeagoon>	Lawyers would have a field day saying its different.
Dec 20 15:15:08 <robbat2>	SwifT: when you amend the trademark doc, can you add some text like this: "We will not approve any variations of the Gentoo G logo that change the aspect ratio or otherwise distort the shape"
Dec 20 15:15:18 <robbat2>	NeddySeagoon: do you have any other old business?
Dec 20 15:15:19 <SwifT>	ok
Dec 20 15:15:47 <NeddySeagoon>	robbat2: I still need to write to the UK Gentoo Foundation
Dec 20 15:15:55 <robbat2>	NeddySeagoon: yes, we mentioned that ;-)
Dec 20 15:16:15 <robbat2>	you covered it in your email
Dec 20 15:16:23 <NeddySeagoon>	OK
Dec 20 15:16:31 <robbat2>	so nothing else then?
Dec 20 15:16:35 <robbat2>	Date of Next Meeting - 17 Jan 2016 19:00 UTC
Dec 20 15:16:42 <NeddySeagoon>	Nothing else.
Dec 20 15:16:56 <NeddySeagoon>	WFM
Dec 20 15:16:57 <dabbott>	fine here
Dec 20 15:17:01 <SwifT>	ok
Dec 20 15:17:29 <robbat2>	should be ok with me, but I have might to leave after an hour
Dec 20 15:17:42 <antarus>	I might be busy that day
Dec 20 15:17:43 <NeddySeagoon>	robbat2: I'll chair  :)
Dec 20 15:17:59 <robbat2>	antarus: put it on your google calendar now anyway
Dec 20 15:18:02 <antarus>	(I know I have a thing at 23:00 UTC, and I may have plans earlier
Dec 20 15:18:23 <antarus>	oh you won't send me a courtesy text? :)
Dec 20 15:18:31 <robbat2>	lol, i will too
Dec 20 15:18:39 <robbat2>	anybody else want a reminder text?
Dec 20 15:18:59 <NeddySeagoon>	I should remember.
Dec 20 15:19:15 <SwifT>	I should remember as well
Dec 20 15:19:33 <dabbott>	I do update / topic
Dec 20 15:19:45 <SwifT>	but my cellphone is in ldap for those who need to call me anyway ;)
Dec 20 15:19:49 <robbat2>	i'll post logs soon
Dec 20 15:20:22 <robbat2>	open floor...
Dec 20 15:20:50 <robbat2>	(3 minutes gap for anybody to speak)
Dec 20 15:20:56 <robbat2>	otherwise we're done
Dec 20 15:20:58 <NeddySeagoon>	Thank you for chairing robbat2 and my apologies to the team for messing up
Dec 20 15:21:34 <robbat2>	dabbott: what details do you need from me to update the NM filing?
Dec 20 15:22:06 <robbat2>	antarus, SwifT: we can add you to the filing as well if you want
Dec 20 15:22:27 <dabbott>	your address
Dec 20 15:22:39 <robbat2>	oh, there is waht I wanted to mention
Dec 20 15:22:50 <robbat2>	i want to contact wayne chew
Dec 20 15:22:51 <dabbott>	I removed Matt
Dec 20 15:23:02 <robbat2>	and ask if he was forwarding anything to us
Dec 20 15:23:06 <SwifT>	robbat2: no need, thats just more paperwork :P
Dec 20 15:23:07 <robbat2>	and update where he's sending it
Dec 20 15:23:13 <NeddySeagoon>	Go ahead
Dec 20 15:23:59 <robbat2>	"Principal Place Of Business Outside Of NM"
Dec 20 15:24:01 <robbat2>	on the filing
Dec 20 15:24:07 <robbat2>	my PO box is outside the US
Dec 20 15:24:15 <robbat2>	does anybody care about that?
Dec 20 15:24:17 <NeddySeagoon>	We don't need to have one
Dec 20 15:24:38 <robbat2>	ok, i'll just make sure wayne chew forwards me stuff if he gets it
Dec 20 15:24:47 <NeddySeagoon>	It was convient for Matt
Dec 20 15:24:57 <robbat2>	(bank/tax stuff)
Dec 20 15:25:51 <dabbott>	You should be able to access the bank information with a copy of the NM official corporation documents, I think I can get one
Dec 20 15:26:22 <antarus>	you can add me if you want
Dec 20 15:26:27 <antarus>	but I move constantly
Dec 20 15:26:37 <antarus>	(e.g. I will move again in June)
Dec 20 15:26:39 <robbat2>	dabbott: the bank wants the SSN of the last treasurer as proof to recover the  details
Dec 20 15:26:47 <NeddySeagoon>	antarus: ducking and diving  :)
Dec 20 15:26:54 <robbat2>	antarus: do you keep a PO box for consistent mail?
Dec 20 15:26:57 <antarus>	no
Dec 20 15:27:18 <antarus>	I get like 3 things that are important, they are all from the government, and the gov is good at finding me ;)
Dec 20 15:27:29 <NeddySeagoon>	hehe
Dec 20 15:27:36 <antarus>	the only consistent mailing address I use is google
Dec 20 15:28:00 <dabbott>	robbat2: send me your address I am logged into the site, I can change it now
Dec 20 15:28:04 <antarus>	antarus (Alec Warner) 1600 amphitheatre parkway, mountain view CA, 94040
Dec 20 15:28:29 <antarus>	its less likely I will get fired or quit, vs moving house, he
Dec 20 15:28:29 <NeddySeagoon>	until June
Dec 20 15:28:56 <robbat2>	NeddySeagoon: that's the official mailing address for google ;-)
Dec 20 15:29:04 <SwifT>	if you don't need me anymore, i'm off to make late dinner
Dec 20 15:29:07 <robbat2>	cya
Dec 20 15:29:22 <dabbott>	bye SwifT thanks
Dec 20 15:29:33 <robbat2>	dabbott: i emailed trustees with my updated address details
Dec 20 15:29:38 <NeddySeagoon>	goodnight SwifT 
Dec 20 15:29:38 <robbat2>	both home & POBox
Dec 20 15:32:45 <NeddySeagoon>	are we done ?
Dec 20 15:32:49 <robbat2>	yes
Dec 20 15:33:20 <NeddySeagoon>	Thanks you
Dec 20 15:34:53 <robbat2>	sorry, i didn't dismiss the meeting
Dec 20 15:34:56 <robbat2>	i forgot to